UKC Forums - UKC Rule scenario

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Posted by on 01-13-2009 09:20 PM:

UKC Rule scenario

Here is a scenario that I've experienced. It was scored in the woods, informally questioned by a handler. At the conclusion of the nite hunt it was informally asked. The MOH, a 2 handlers with 20+ years of UKC hunting experience, all said it was scored incorrectly.

4 Dog Nite Ch cast.

4 dogs are cast, within the first minute Dog A is struck, followed by Dogs B, C, & D in that order.
Dog C is treed for 125, followed by Dog D (75) & Dog B (50). Dog A continues opening running in circles in the cornfield. 5 is up, tree is scored. Coon seen.
Dog B- 75, 50= 125+
Dog C- 50, 125= 175+
Dog D- 25, 75= 100+
Dog A is still carrying 100 strike.
Dogs B, C, & D are recast. All 3 strike in for 25.
Dogs A & B continue opening in the corn, Dogs C & D are working in the timber.
Dog D gets deep through the country and is treed for 125. Cast waits. Dogs A & B are still working the same area. Dog C is at large, presumed to be heading deeper. Cast begins to close the gap with Dog D while waiting the 5. 5 is up, Cast heads into Dog D. As Dog D is being handled, Dog C arrives and is handled. Coon is seen.
Dog D- 25, 125= 150+ for a total score of 250+
Dog C- is minused 25- for covering a closed tree. Now has a score of 150+.
Handlers of Dogs A & B request cast moves closer in the direction where they're dogs were last heard.
Cast gets back into that area and runs the 8 minutes.
Dog A is still carrying 100 strike. Dog B is carrying 25 strike. 2 coon have been scored and over 1 hr of hunting time has elapsed. Dogs A & B open in the same area they have been all night, breaking the 8.
Dogs C & D are recast.
Dog D opens followed by Dog C, Handlers strike in the dogs accordingly...

What does Dog D strike in for?
What about Dog C?
What happens to Dog B strike pts?
What happens to Dog A?

Posted by John D on 01-13-2009 09:31 PM:

When B,C & D were re-cast after scoring that first tree, they should have been struck in for 75,50,25, not all for 25.

There at the end, Dog A would fall under the nonworking dog rule and 100 would be available except that Dog B is struck for 25. He does not fall under the nonworking dog rule and no dog can be struck in above him. So, C&D strike for 25.

A&B's strike points are eligible to be scored, as any strike points are.

I must be missing something?

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Posted by on 01-13-2009 09:34 PM:

So you're saying after the first tree 3 dogs can strike in back in for the full set of strike pts, with Dog A carrying 100? But then Dog C&D can't strike in over Dog B carrying 25?

I know the correct scoring, I'm gonna lay low on it until after some different responses.

Posted by on 01-13-2009 09:56 PM:

Marc, you are thinking PKC/AKC....one set of strike points. UKC is different. Dogs are always struck back in for the next available position which is different from PKC/AKC.
The rest of the question is covered by rule 7. UKC is the only KC where you can have two dogs, both struck in carrying 100 strike at the same time.

Posted by on 01-13-2009 09:59 PM:

I wasn't carrying the card on this one!
For all I can recall, after recasting from the first tree may have been scored differently.
My question is more regarding the last part of the scenario.
2 dogs have been scored at 2 trees, 1 dog has been scored at 1 tree, another dog has been carrying 100 strike for over an hour.

Posted by NEOKHUNTER on 01-13-2009 10:13 PM:

Im probably wrong on this one.

First Dog A is minused under the non-working rule.
Dog A= -100

Then Dogs C and D can score the full 100 under rule 7. So therefore two dogs in the cast will be carrying 100 strike points, due to the fact that after Dob A was minused and Dog B struck in he would have 100 strike points. But thanks to rule 7 so does either dogs C or D whichever struck in first.

Wow I would hate for that to happen to me in a hunt. Id probably be just as confused as I am not just thinking about it.

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Posted by on 01-13-2009 10:57 PM:

Neo....go back and read the non-working dog rule (rule 7) and show me where it tells us to minus dog A.

Posted by jda on 01-13-2009 10:58 PM:

mark if im reading this right,after the first hour or 2 cooon have been scored strike should have been open..if i read all that correct..lol

Posted by NEOKHUNTER on 01-13-2009 11:04 PM:

jda

Then if a dog completley quits a track and the eight runs out is a dog minused or is it just "oh well guess it wasnt a good enough track"? Not being a smart ass just trying to understand why a non-working dog wouldnt be minused?

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Posted by NEOKHUNTER on 01-13-2009 11:07 PM:

Wouldnt rule 4e apply in this scenario? If the dog quits the track and is no longer working and the eight runs out he is minused. No if ands or buts about it. Non working or just plane quit a track its minus points.

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Posted by on 01-13-2009 11:10 PM:

Yes, if the 8 caught him he would be minused his 100 strike. As I understood it, the 8 was broke before it was up so the dog continued to carry his 100 strike. Maybe I misunderstood that part.

Posted by NEOKHUNTER on 01-13-2009 11:12 PM:

If thats the case he would carry his 100 strike points and the other dogs would recieve the next avialable position. It would all depend on A. if the dog quit the track and came in, in such case he would be minused for quiting a track and B. if the eight minutes got him, then he would be minused for that as well.

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Posted by jda on 01-13-2009 11:13 PM:

jim thats how i understood it

Posted by NEOKHUNTER on 01-13-2009 11:17 PM:

Am I missing the boat here or is what Im saying correct? IDK if id even deal with this situation in the woods Id take it straight to the MOH

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Posted by Bill(Chew) on 01-13-2009 11:23 PM:

Dog A has met the non working dog by more than one hour and two coons scored and has no minus. Dog B is carrying __ ? strike position and has NOT met the requirements for non working dog, so Dog B's strike position is still what sets the strike points for dogs C & D. Dogs C & D can only be struck in below dog B until dog B has met the requirements to be classified as a non working dog also.

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Posted by NEOKHUNTER on 01-13-2009 11:26 PM:

I would deffinatley agree with that.

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Posted by roughcreek on 01-13-2009 11:37 PM:

bill(chew) you got it right !!

Posted by Rip on 01-14-2009 12:16 AM:

John D is correct.

When they were recast 100 was taken, but75/50/25 had been scored and were available.

At the end B still was carrying 25 strike so no dog can be struck in above him unless he too met the non working dog rule. You can't reopen 100 strike because while you are correct dog A met the requirements, dog B still had not so until he does no dog can go in above him either.

The non working dog rule doesn't minus the dog as long as the strike is kept open (as I understand this post the 8 never caught anybody).

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 01-14-2009 12:36 AM:

after two coon is scored, the dogs turned loose go back in for the full set of strike points..it doesn't have to be the same dog on both trees..

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Posted by Rip on 01-14-2009 12:47 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Dogs
after two coon is scored, the dogs turned loose go back in for the full set of strike points..it doesn't have to be the same dog on both trees..

No, but one dog does have to be the non hunting dog, in this case dog A has two coon scored on him/kept 100 over an hour. So true he would fit the non working dog rule and you COULD open 100 back.

IF IF IF it wasn't for dog B, what everybody is missing is that Dog B was at the tree with the rest of them and he is struck in at 25, he has not had two coon scored on him and he has not held that position over an hour.

Therefore NO dog can be struck in over him and the most the other dogs can go in for are 25.

Yes, if not for dog B 100 would be back open but you can't forget about dog B holding everybody down to 25 due to the fact that he IS still considered with the cast and the rules plainly state no dog can be struck back in over another dog working with the cast.

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 01-14-2009 01:12 AM:

rip, i understand your argument..what rule overides the other???

Posted by Rip on 01-14-2009 01:38 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Dogs
rip, i understand your argument..what rule overides the other???

Here goes, it's tough on line because you have to type out stuff instead of talking about it but I will try and give it a swing.

Here is the rule stating you can't strike in over another dog that is part of the cast.

"2. POINT SYSTEM:

(a) 100 points for dog that opens first; 75 points second; 50 points third; 25 points fourth. If a dog is turned back in on a trail that is being worked, he gets the next available position. If all positions are taken, he gets 25 points. All dogs must be off leash in order for any dog to receive 100 strike points."

4.E"............Once a position has been scored it becomes available again; however, a dog cannot be struck "in" over a dog's position that is being held. (If all positions are taken, dog will receive 25 points for going back, but these points will be minused every time he comes out. He is not to be tied or encouraged to go back.)"

And the part that allows you to open up the scoring, which is an EXCEPTION to the way it is normally scored.

"7. NON-WORKING DOG:

If dog is not working as part of cast and is holding first strike or second strike, etc., all strike points will be open to other dogs after coons have been treed and seen in two separate trees, or one hour of hunting time has elapsed."

So we have two things going on here. First, the rule saying "next available position" and not striking in over another dog are normal, ordinary rules that are the standard, normal thing that happens on a cast regarding scoring of dogs strike points and recording those points.

Rule 7 is a specific rule addressing a specific situation. As such there are qualifiers, that specific situation MUST be met in order for it to come into play since it is the exception. There is no question dog A meets this requirement.

However dog B does not meet those requirements and he is scored in the defalut manner until he does meet those requirements. In this case no dog can be struck in over him because he is still part of the cast, he can not by rule be considered a non working dog, the exception, so he is with the cast and no dog can go in above him.

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 01-14-2009 01:58 AM:

so two dogs get screwed instead of one!!

Posted by Rip on 01-14-2009 02:12 AM:

Well no, Dog B treed on the first tree so they haven't treed two coons on him nor has he held strike for over an hour.

IF they tree another coon on him or he has held his position for an hour before they strike THEN you could open up the 100 strike because then dog B would be considered a non working dog as well.

Dog B was still working as part of the cast, they only made one tree on him, he was in second place in the cast, and they turned back in on his track so striking above him would give them a higher strike than him on a track he was on before they were. Now that would be gettin it put to ya, somebody turnin a dog into the dog that struck the bad track and worked it up hot and the new dog gets more strike points than the one that did the work? LOL if you didn't have the rule statin that you can't strike in over a dog already on track that is part of the cast then that really WOULD help out the "slick tree" artist in the summer time where they get all those circle points.

I think the rules as they are on this one are pretty fair. If you tree two coon on the dog then it ain't workin with you, if it has held that strike over an hour, well it's time to open the strike back up. But I also don't think it would be fair for dogs to be struck in over dogs that are working as part of the cast.

Seems pretty even handed to me.

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 01-14-2009 02:19 AM:

ya except for the dog that treed two coon...

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