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Comp hunts and cheatin'

All this cryin' and complainin' about comp hunts ,the cheatin and lyin' not huntin the right dog has been going on forever. You just here about more now because of the message boards. Yes there is some of it that happens. But not anywhere near what some would like you to believe. Most if not all offenders are caught at some point.
My opinion after 40 years of following these hounds around and listening to this garbage is that the ones cryin',complainin', saying they will never go to another comp hunt and saying titles don't mean anything have one thing in common.



THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH DOG TO WIN!!!!!!!!!!!

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Or don't know the rules But most of the time just can't take getting beat they have to blame some for cheating

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Come on people drop you're ego and admitt you just got beat, made a bad call, dog made a mistake, what ever.You can't get cheated that much

A good friend once told me "Before you can win you gotta learn how to lose"

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Jason Mullins
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Not knowing the rules Why would any one enter a hunt and not know the rules. That would be like setting down at a poker table and not know how to play. I under stand a newby wont have them down pat but should have the basic's down, most cast I have been on will try to help a newcomer out not try to beat the with the rules if they messup we will explain what they did wrong. I know I made mistakes when i started ,and can still make a bone headed call,but didn't cry i got cheated. Just learned from it.

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I agree with all the post above. Some just cant take loss and admit for that night anyways, the other dog is better. But the deal is you get cheated it's your own fault alot of times. I am not condoning cheating and they need to continue to work hard as they can to prevent it but most times it is poor handling. I know I have been outhandled quite abit in the past but that is part of learning.JMO!

I will never understand the big hurry for the newcomers to get in a nite hunt. There is no rush. When I started out, I hooked up with a couple guys and learned. We hunted all week so I could learn my dog and to hear other dogs. I read the rules and we applied them during the week just to get a feel and better understanding of them. Then, I spectated every weekend for two months. This is what taught me the most. I heard all sorts of dogs and handlers work. I also got to see the rules play out in actual competition. Some rules you don't really understand until you see them play out in real life.

Finally I felt I was ready, and lo and behold, I was because I didn't rush into it. Truthfully, a lot of the problems come from people taking a loss like it is one of their kids that got beat. These are dogs and they are far from perfect. Some one else already said you have to learn to lose because even the best dogs do their share of losing in all registries.

I sit here with my leg in a cast and only a pup that is only lightly started. Missed almost all of the good cool weather hunting. I would do almost anything to be mixed up in the hunts this spring, and some people have nothing to do but complain and knock other people's dogs. Be glad you have a dog that can tree a coon and you are able to follow it.

I`ve got no problem with losing, to a better handler or better dog, however that being said cheaters weather caught or not are trash, if someone has a better dog than me then i need to practice more and try to get better, as older more experinced hunters it is up to us to lead by example, I know thats it is better to lose than win by cheating in any form or fashon. rules are rules, learn`em apply`em follow`em.....

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KEEPIN`EM TREED WITH BLACK N TAN STYLE.....

Some of the worst i've seen were the young guns trained by their sore looser buddies & in some cases their dads that would argue over getting minused & go telling how they got screwed when it was simply because they didn't know the rules even though they thought they did. if i have minus or scratch coming i'll take it & if you got it coming i'm going to do all i can to give it to you too , but it will be strictly by the rules of whatever registry im hunting . if i'm beat , i'm beat with no arguement or telling i got screwed but have saw some that will try anything & if you take control of the situation they usually straighten right up & get really nice & agreeable when they see you to know the rules & are honest. one of pkcs big winners did this first drop & saw me & a buddy were all right & we had a very good hunt after all lol

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TAKE YO MINUS LIKE A MAN.

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Take your minus like a MAN.

quote:

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Originally posted by James G
Not knowing the rules Why would any one enter a hunt and not know the rules.

---

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A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'

That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.

Would the handler that new all the rules before entering their first hunt please step forward.....

Ok....how 'bout somebody that just had a good, solid, basic knowlege of the rules their 1st time out.

I know I sure didn't but I was hooked for life.

quote:

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Originally posted by Highbawl1
But the deal is you get cheated it's your own fault alot of times.

---

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A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'

That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.

very well said.

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KEEPIN`EM TREED WITH BLACK N TAN STYLE.....

I was on a cast one night that had 2 teenagers, another man and myself.
I was the judge and the guide.
One teen had hunted in several hunts before.
The other man and myself had hunted in several before.
The second teen had never hunted in a hunt before in his life and I had never met him before. He had no clue as to how the rules worked.
So, before the hunt, I sat him down and explained to him how and when to strike and tree his dog. I explained in detail how to ? a call and what a circle, plus and minus was.
When we started the hunt I made sure that I explained every decision I made, including why I started the tree 5 and why the 8 was running and what had to happen to break it.
The young man clearly had the better dog that night and he ended up winning the whole hunt. First time out he won first place registered and High scoring dog of hunt. That boy was so happy and I was to. Just to see his face and the pure excitement in his voice when we all got back to the clubhouse and heard him tell his story.
Sure, I didnt have to spend 1 minute coaching him and I would have won the cast and hunt. But I am not that way. I will try to help anyone I can even if it means I will lose. We all played by the rules and it took about an extra 20 minutes out of my time to coach this young man and he may be turned on to compitition coonhunting for life.

I did explain to him that he needed to get a rule book and learn ther rules because there were very few people out there who would spend the time and effort to help him and shoot him straight.

The best dog won, not the best handler.

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A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'

That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.

If it's someones first hunt i will too, but if they're hitting the hunts hard they better know them. but i'll do everything possible to have a good honest hunt. if they want to be a bad egg i'll send them packing. i have definitley helped newcomers by explaining it to them & will ? anything for them willingly for their benefit even if i know the outcome. but very few casts i've been on have been a problem with the exception of rattling dogs or minusing a tree . if it's slick it's slick admit it , take it like a man & go on .

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Well said BOOBOO !!!

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New UKC Policy Regarding Hunt Judges
Every now and again we receive phone calls where a participant contacts the UKC office to discuss a ruling that was made on a cast they participated in. Many of these questions come from an inexperienced handler and accepted the ruling thinking it must have been the right call, however, had reservations about it. In some cases it becomes evident that a judge, in most cases hunting judges, may have used a participants inexperience or lack of knowledge of the rules to gain an advantage for themselves or others in the cast. We’re talking about knowingly taking outright advantage of such a situation.

As most are well aware, whenever there’s a disagreement in the woods regarding a ruling that is made, or not made, then UKC rules require a handler to follow the proper procedures to question the call at the time it happened in order to resolve the issue. Sometimes an inexperienced or unknowledgeable cast member may not be aware of those, or that there are, procedures that must take place to resolve any questions or disagreements. Some hunters take the initiative that it is the responsibility of the participant to know the rules. UKC doesn’t disagree with that theory for the most part. We certainly encourage all participants to educate themselves which in turn will allow most situations to be resolved without someone out right being taken advantage of. It is disheartening to have to tell an individual that they took the shaft and there’s nothing UKC can do about it due to procedures not having been followed to correct the matter.

The Disciplinary Action Committee has agreed and authorized for the Coonhound Department to take action against individuals found to have blatantly cheated a cast member or abused their authority. Of course these matters will be considered on a case by case basis. If it is determined that such an incident occurred then the individual may be placed on probation and not allowed to judge a nite hunt cast for at least a period of time. Of course they will be notified of such by mail. In addition, there name will be published on a “Not Allowed to Judge” list published in the Coonhound Bloodlines.

This policy does not mean that an individual should simply accept the ruling and not follow proper procedures and instead simply advise the UKC of their situation. When a participant is asked to judge they should first be knowledgeable of the rules. Otherwise, they should not accept the position. If the recommended method to assign judges is used, as outlined in the rulebook under Master of Hounds/Hunt Director (Drawing Casts and Judges), then there should never be an issue in assigning qualified and honest judges.

Along these same lines we strongly encourage all participants to educate themselves on the rules and procedures. A good judge will always try to avoid letting an inexperienced or unknowledgeable cast member to fall into an unfortunate situation. Of course, the UKC agrees it is never a good idea to bend the rules or anything of that nature to help out a newcomer. Rules are rules and are intended to be applied as written for the most experienced participants all the way down to any first timers. Sure, newcomers will learn a lot of things through experience and will learn many things the hard way as most of us have. But they are never a good excuse for a judge to abuse their authority and take advantage of them. Explain and help the inexperienced understand the rules whenever necessary. It will help to keep them in the sport rather than chase them away before they ever get started.

-Allen Gingerich
Coonhound Programs Manager
United Kennel Club









Basically this says the same thing that I have been saying. Newcomers should be able to have a good hunt even if they dont know the rules and now UKC has finally made it policy that if a judge sees some screwing going on or uses the rules to beat the handler to death because he may not completly understand them then he can be disciplined.

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A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'

That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.

Let me back up BooBoo with a story about a hunt just this past fall.

Hunt was going well, and we had treed several coon. A young man (not his first hunt) handling a pretty good dog got to himself and treed a coon that put him in the lead. My dog was split treed, but had a legitimate den tree. He had to lead his dog to mine to score my tree.

We both turned loose off the den tree to finish the hunt, had about 10 minutes or so to go in the hunt.

When we turned loose, his dog circles back around and starts working the area of the den tree....not opening mind you,...just "working".

Long story short...well after the first minute, his dog sets down and starts treeing on the den tree (previously scored). The dog opens 15, 20, 25 times, and is not struck. The judge reminds the handler that he needs to strike his dog, which he does....and the judge takes his call, then applies the appropriate minus points to the dog.

That's when the fireworks started. The young man got mad, withdrew his dog (still had 7 minutes left in the hunt at the time) and accused everyone in the world of "cheating" cause we knew who had the better dog.

Mind you, I ended up winning the cast, I was not the judge, but I was accused of cheating!

Back at the truck, some 30 minutes after the hunt ended, the young handler decided that he wanted to question the call. Of course when I reminded him that he was supposed to question the call at the time the call was made, he again accused me of cheating. We all ended up at the MOH table...again being accused of cheating in front of an audience of folks....

The simple fact is that this young handler thought he knew the rules, but when it came down to what he actually KNEW vs. what he thought he knew left large holes in his knowledge.

He went home insisting that the judge, me, the MOH, and everyone in the world "cheated" him, when in reality, he cheated himself out of a cast win.

He was handling a dog for someone else, and when I talked to the dogs owner, all he knew was that his young handler told him that the cast "ganged up on him" and cheated him using "the buddy system".

I would bet that anyone that has been to more than a dozen hunts can tell a similar story, where a guy thinks he has the better dog, but when he does not follow the rules of the game, he gets "cheated"....

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UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
Would the handler that new all the rules before entering their first hunt please step forward.....

Ok....how 'bout somebody that just had a good, solid, basic knowlege of the rules their 1st time out.

I know I sure didn't but I was hooked for life.

---

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I agree with people on the situations where handlers just get to acting like a$$holes.

My issue is where folks are saying that you need to know the rules before you should ever be able to hunt. I think if you have an open minded handler and a good cast of honest handlers then the nite hunt is the best place to learn the rules. But some on here dont feel that way.

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A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'

That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.

quote:

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Originally posted by RedBones4me


Basically this says the same thing that I have been saying. Newcomers should be able to have a good hunt even if they dont know the rules and now UKC has finally made it policy that if a judge sees some screwing going on or uses the rules to beat the handler to death because he may not completly understand them then he can be disciplined.

---

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

quote:

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Originally posted by RedBones4me
I agree with people on the situations where handlers just get to acting like a$$holes.

My issue is where folks are saying that you need to know the rules before you should ever be able to hunt. I think if you have an open minded handler and a good cast of honest handlers then the nite hunt is the best place to learn the rules. But some on here dont feel that way.

---

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

quote:

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Originally posted by HOBO
RULES what rules????????????? I had never seen a rule the night I went on my first hunt.

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A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'

That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Oak Ridge
Dale,

You typed this while I was typing my "story". So are you implying that the judges job is to allow the handler in my story to not call his dog, but instead to "ignore" the rule and allow some "slack"?

Knowing that you have to strike your dog on or before the third bark is pretty basic. And applying the appropriate minus point for failure to do so on the first offense is again, pretty cut and dried on the back of the scorecard....

How is that fair to the seasoned handler? By the way...I'll just stop judging if that is the case...I'm not out there to "train" someone I'm there to participate in a competition event. I do my training the other five nights of the week.

---

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A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'

That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.

i hav hunted with several people that have been labled "Cheaters" around my area,, hunted with all of them or most and yeah maybe one is a pain in the @$$, but the others i had no problem with and didnt try anything, they are just out to win and if they can read the fact that you dont know the rules, they will use that to their advantage, alot of people will and thats not cheating. as long as you know the rules, you be just fine in my opinion. dont argue or whine(biggest pet-peave) and just call your dog as it is and take your minus like a man.

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