UKC Forums - ? top hounds old blood or new

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Posted by truebluefordman on 01-07-2009 07:21 PM:

? top hounds old blood or new

i have been reading where the old blood v new blood in stud dogs is in a tiff. if we are going to get top hounds [any breed] should we not be breeding to new stock? yes the old ones where great but to keep moveing forward then shouldnt we be breeding to a top winning young dog ? how many old stud dogs are still putting winners out.yes we all know there off spring is but we dont see the so called old dogs doing it as much. i know some winning young dog dont have any pups hitting the hunt yet too show they are reproducers yet but just wanted to get some thoughts of you out there. dont be shy post what ya think ,,,this is not who is or was the greatest just a ? on how to better the hounds, thanks..

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 01-07-2009 07:32 PM:

some times you come to a fork in the road and go the wrong way!! do you keep driving forward or go back and go the right way...

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Posted by Majestic Tree H on 01-07-2009 07:32 PM:

You know this is a very deep question !! Why is it that most everyone keeps trying to breed back to older well known hounds ?

Maybe its cuz the new stock has lost something ??

I for one love the old Stock and the older the better.. I will try and do all I can to rebuild a "Goose Creek Track" or "Diamond Jim"

They were great cold nosed hounds that could do it all ..

Looks Conformation and GO .. Shame he Died so young..

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Posted by roosterrun on 01-07-2009 07:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Dogs
some times you come to a fork in the road and go the wrong way!! do you keep driving forward or go back and go the right way...

This is true .But If stop at the fork or turn around and go back or never try the other side of the fork, You will never get where you want to be.

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Posted by grwaskom on 01-07-2009 08:07 PM:

THERE ARE TO MANY PEOPLE TRYING TO BREED BETTER DOGS WITHOUT DOING THERE HOMEWORK FIRST. SO STAYING CLOSER TO THE OLD PROVEN BLOOD MIGHT BE THE WISE THING TO DO.

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Posted by jodaviess1 on 01-07-2009 08:28 PM:

NEW BLOOD

WHERE IS IT AND WHERE IS IT COMING FROM? <v>

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 01-07-2009 08:34 PM:

Re: NEW BLOOD

quote:
Originally posted by jodaviess1
WHERE IS IT AND WHERE IS IT COMING FROM? <v>

its coming from people breeding on what they hear, and not what they know!!!

Posted by jodaviess1 on 01-07-2009 08:40 PM:

OLD OR NEW????

IT'S JUST NEW TO THEM. LOL ONLY SO MUCH TO CHOOSE FROM. THE RIGHT CROSSES WITH WHAT WE HAVE MAKES WHAT WE ARE AFTER. IT IS HUMAN NATURE TO LOOK FOR SOMETHING THAT ISN'T OUT THERE INSTED OF DOING THE RESEARCH AND USING WHAT IS AVALIBLE WITH A BIG SHOT OF REALITY THROWN IN. <v>

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Posted by bandithunter on 01-07-2009 08:42 PM:

Depends on what you're after. I've seen too many good traits sacrificed on the comp. dog alter to suit my tastes. I have no use for a hot nosed, no grit, no bottom, slick treeing fool. Don't discount the old breeders so quickly, they forgot more than most know.

Posted by P.W. Chapman on 01-07-2009 08:47 PM:

Just because it's old or new don't mean it's better. There were idiots crossing dogs with no luck using foolish practices "back in the day" just like there are talented breeders now days and vice versa.

Posted by COONDOG on 01-07-2009 08:59 PM:

Ok here I go. I for one think that the hounds of today, in general, are to one dimension. As well I think that the hounds of old had flaws for todays hunters. Ex. Back 25 years or so ago, coon prices were up, people wanted a dog that could take an old TRACK and put meat on it. Speed and loudmouthed TREEDOGS were not as important. Today everyone wants a TREEDOG, that gets deep and wooded quick, if he misses now and then oh well. Now, if we as responsible breeders can take the best of both, a dog that has a good nose with brains to tree coons, and put the speed and tree power of todays dogs in them, we have created a balanced dog that should tree coons through the week without walking 30 miles and dogs that can win on the weekend. I for one dont think breeding is as big of a crap shoot as alot of people would lead you to believe. If you research common characteristics of bloodlines that you are about to cross you should know what to expect, to a point. Not just breed to ole' so and so because he is a winner and all grand. If you have a female that is overpowering on the wood but lacks a nose or ground ability, then try to breed to a line that is cold nosed track dogs, not to another treedog that throws a lot of tree just cuz he is a winner and all grand.

Breeding is a lot like deer hunting, you dont walk in the woods for the first time on opening day and expect success. You do your home work through the summer and early fall to try to increase your probability of success. Why not approach breeding the same way. Do your homework first instead of just throwing 2 dogs together because the name will sell pups.

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 01-07-2009 09:03 PM:

i'm just content to hunt what a breed, and breed what i hunt,, i have never whine and cried because i never had a dog that could not tree a coon when it was 10 degrees out...i'm just picky on what i want to follow around in the woods when coon are tuff to tree..and the temps are lower than the average guy wants to hunt in. a dog with no nose or no desire to run a track to catch would not be much fun to hunt around here after november..

Posted by josh on 01-07-2009 09:11 PM:

Re: OLD OR NEW????

quote:
Originally posted by jodaviess1
IT'S JUST NEW TO THEM. LOL ONLY SO MUCH TO CHOOSE FROM. THE RIGHT CROSSES WITH WHAT WE HAVE MAKES WHAT WE ARE AFTER. IT IS HUMAN NATURE TO LOOK FOR SOMETHING THAT ISN'T OUT THERE INSTED OF DOING THE RESEARCH AND USING WHAT IS AVALIBLE WITH A BIG SHOT OF REALITY THROWN IN. <v>

Thats right.

Reality is a tough pill to swallow somtimes.

The longer they are dead the better they get....

Posted by truebluefordman on 01-07-2009 09:31 PM:

some good points for sure, but imo the old blood we refer too was young blood back in the day,

Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 01-07-2009 10:00 PM:

3 differnt ways to label them

show dogs
money dogs
before the money
thank my next 1 will be a collie

Posted by Bill Ziegler on 01-08-2009 12:47 AM:

I think there were top coondogs yesterday and there are top coondogs today. And just as they were rare yesterday, they're rare today.

My ideal would not be, necessarily, to improve on the top hounds in the history of our sport. I would rather see a higher percentage of pups whelped today and in the future go on to make top coondogs.

Going back to the top dogs of yesterday, and in the future going back to the top dogs of today is the best way to solidify those traits that make up a truly great coondog. Again, top coondogs are rare, and I believe they really should be used as a way to bolster the foundation for our breeding stock rather than just be used as stepping stones.

Posted by Dbradbury3 on 01-08-2009 02:40 PM:

every one is forgeting where do you think the new blood came from it came from the old blood , your going to get the same thing

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 01-08-2009 03:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dbradbury3
every one is forgeting where do you think the new blood came from it came from the old blood , your going to get the same thing

now you know what crosses worked and what didn't. observe, observe, observe,

Posted by on 01-08-2009 05:41 PM:

"READ WHAT YA BREED"

In order to be successful in my way of thinking you need to have intimate knowledge of the "OLD" in order to get what your lookin for in the "NEW" that will eventually become the "OLD" that will produce the "NEW".

Sure,you can get lucky by just throwin two together because it's conveinent & it happen's frequently I'm sure. In order to continue on in a forward direction with the result's your lookin for end's up removing the "Luck" factor. It is then replaced by boot's bein worn out & keeping an open mind as well as bein honest with your self about the fault's within.

If you can't see where & what need's changed with what your followin then there is no sense in tryin. The biggest critic of your goal's & result's should be you with both eye's open & lookin down the road for as Dandogs said "The rite fork!"

I am also like Dandogs in I hunt what I breed & breed what I hunt for myself first & foremost. Never really cared about producing mass quanitie's & never will. When there are puppy's born here they are for us & if there are some extra's they get shared. I "ALWAY'S" keep several out of a litter especially now in order to be able to get the full spectrum of what they are & or will be long enough to know.

Been building a genetic gene pool for a long time & am one of the biggest critic's out there. I've culled some awful natural young dog's for reason's some would never think of & that is also a critical phase that to many never do. That "FOR SALE, TWO YEAR OLD THAT WILL RUN TRACK SOME BUT NOT TREEIN MUCH YET & JUST"S NEED'S SOME COON KNOCKED OUT TO THEM & HUNTED STUFF" don't fly to well with me. That's like sayin I've hunted the hair off this dog & I can't get them to respond so instead I will pawn it off. Of course there are exception to that but it sure make's me scratch my head when I see those kinda add's.

Sure,you can't keep'um all realistically but ya gotta "Read what ya breed" & acknowledge it in order to produce better than what ya have be continuously be strivin for the optimum goal.

Some don't give a hoot about havin a second or a tenth generation & that's ok to. Everyone has their own boat to float & that's totally up to them. I respect the true "Breeder's" out there that have progency continuously from their own thinkin & open mindedness to utilize in their future gene pool. I also respect those that are willing to share that knowledge in an honest way to those that due lack the experience & intimate knowledge as well.

Everyone has different like's & dislike's regardless of what flavor of hound ya hunt & if ya want something like the old ya best be payin close attention to the "NEW!"

Just my opinion, "OF COURSE!"

Posted by Wayne Valentino on 01-09-2009 03:57 AM:

Yep

what two toes is saying is on the mark.. To know where you are going you gotta know where you have been.......

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Posted by Bill Ziegler on 01-12-2009 03:13 AM:

We've been line breeding off Tree Blaster for 18 years now. With each cross we've made we've bred only offspring that have shown most of his strong points and NONE of his weak points.

This past spring and summer we crossed 2 of those line bred females back to his frozen semen. I've kept 6 of those pups. So far I can say that the build on these pups is much tighter than the old dog while maintaining the old houndy look that Blaster had. They're showing loud to exceptionally loud mouths, even as pups, and there wasn't a shy one in the bunch. Only time will tell how many of them have the drive, the track speed and the Tree Blaster style of treeing that first got me interested in him, but I think I've got reason to be optimistic.This, to me, is the value of breeding back to the old blood.

Here are some pictures of some of the pups.

Posted by Kenny Eads on 01-12-2009 05:12 PM:

Mr. Ziegler those are some nice looking pups. That white is just pure. Good Luck with those pups.

Posted by Jim Vaught on 01-12-2009 05:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Bill Ziegler
We've been line breeding off Tree Blaster for 18 years now. With each cross we've made we've bred only offspring that have shown most of his strong points and NONE of his weak points.

This past spring and summer we crossed 2 of those line bred females back to his frozen semen. I've kept 6 of those pups. So far I can say that the build on these pups is much tighter than the old dog while maintaining the old houndy look that Blaster had. They're showing loud to exceptionally loud mouths, even as pups, and there wasn't a shy one in the bunch. Only time will tell how many of them have the drive, the track speed and the Tree Blaster style of treeing that first got me interested in him, but I think I've got reason to be optimistic.This, to me, is the value of breeding back to the old blood.

Here are some pictures of some of the pups. Looks like Sackett dogs ??????

Posted by on 01-12-2009 06:08 PM:

Now those are what I call RED heads!!!!!

Posted by Nocturnal Jeff on 01-13-2009 12:54 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by truebluefordman
some good points for sure, but imo the old blood we refer too was young blood back in the day,

TBFM, I like that "old blood" myself.

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