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Hunting Beagle scoring question

Can dogs score a line if they are in check???

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jmo

Yes dogs can score a line while in check...

dogs don't have to bark to score it...

Jack

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Nope

no they can not score a line in a check, if dogs are in a loss, (check) how can you score anything without the track being resumed?

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Iraq Vet, 03-05, 05-07, 09-10

Phone number 270-820-5560

What if they broke down before the line and a dog scores the line without opening, no check would be rewarded, I've always been told they have to bark to recover the check.

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re

I think it might have been todd one time to say scoring a line is a point of forward progress (just like striking a dog on one bark is considered forward progress.

will look and see what i can find..

jack

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That would mean

If a dog barks one time in a check you would reward them the check? According to what you said that would be acceptable forward progress

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Iraq Vet, 03-05, 05-07, 09-10

Phone number 270-820-5560

not at all..

all i said is if a dog barks one time (without forward progess) and is struck (its considered forward progess).

example,
lets say one dog opens and is struck.... stops barking and goes into check.... while in check... another dog opens once and is struck... the second dog being struck even on one bark is considered forward progress thus eliminating the chance of the first dog to recieve its check...

no mike, i would never reward a check off one bark, i'm probably harder then the average judge on checks...

but can a dog actually trail (scenting) thru a marked (called) line during a check.... yes it can... should i be scored... i'd say yes...

jack

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But if

What i am saying is that the check is still in progress, nothing can be rewarded until the check has been picked up.
That would be like saying that all strikes are closed and if a hound barks you could strike them. you cant score that how could you reward a dog that is still in the check a line????

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Iraq Vet, 03-05, 05-07, 09-10

Phone number 270-820-5560

Mike, think of this. All dogs are running, pounding a rabbit. you circle it, call a line coming out of the brush going across a path. All of a sudden, dogs break down 15 yards before the established line. A dog picks the track up barking only a few times at the mark of the line, and then continues on through which results maybe some of the other or all of them trailing through the line. You would'nt score them on a check or a line. Actually when this happens, this gives a judge the perfect oppurtunity to truly score a dog a recovery. If dog a didn't pick the track back up they wouldn't have scored. This breaking down before scoring happens a lot, we see it all the time. Now on the trailing through without opening, is all left up to the judge at the time to decide if they think the dog or dogs are actually trailing or not. Again a judgment call. But you do score lines if you are in loss, or check, as long as a dog results the track in what the judge believes is forward progress.

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i see

I see what you are saying, but my reasoning is forward progress has to be made. So a hound barks a few times through the line. So lets say he breaks down after the 5 seconds is that reasonable forward progress? i dont think it is. i would not score it as a line or award a check.

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Iraq Vet, 03-05, 05-07, 09-10

Phone number 270-820-5560

Thats just how it is sometimes, if we all knew in foresight that when a track may end, we all might not reward checks to dogs, Personally in the hound and hunter format, I believe the checks, atleast how they seem to be working, is a total joke. There's been many times when I've judged, that you reward forward progress to a dog, and then a few yards later it breaks down. Alot of these scenerio's are left up to the discretion of the judges. Maybe we should someone from the rules committee's give these different scenerio's on the message board's to help people learn how some of these situation's should be handled. I agree with you Mike, depending on the situation its hard to make some of these calls one way or the other. I think the thing to do when judging, is know the rules as much as possible, be consistent, and judge the dogs.

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Yes

I totally agree

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Iraq Vet, 03-05, 05-07, 09-10

Phone number 270-820-5560

re:

surely someone from UKC could ring in and let everyone know if they should be scoring lines during checks or not..

jack

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During a check

Not a chance, the check has got to be picked up by a hound first. if forward progress is established before the line then the line is trailed through, yes but not during a check.

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Iraq Vet, 03-05, 05-07, 09-10

Phone number 270-820-5560

http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthrea...;threadid=89853

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I agree

I agree with that, but what i am saying is. if they are in the check and one hound with his nose down to the ground trails through the line but never actually opens or makes forward progress would you still score it?? Rule 15-c states that a hound must open honestly resulting in forward progress. If he open before the line and then trails through it, give it to him or her. but he he or she just smells the line and then barks after, it wouldnt recieve the line score from me but be rewarded the recovery.

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Iraq Vet, 03-05, 05-07, 09-10

Phone number 270-820-5560

Interesting...I see both sides...I was initialy leaning towards yes....

Matt, you posted the original question...What's your take on it yes or no?

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David Schneider
White Plains Kennels
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"If he open before the line and then trails through it, give it to him or her. but he he or she just smells the line and then barks after, it wouldnt recieve the line score from me but be rewarded the recovery."

This would be wrong!
If the the dog or dogs or tracking though the line , as you say "smells the line" the dog or dogs do not have to bark and you must give them the line! thats the rules.
I like a dog to claim the line to, but thats not the rules.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jamey Gorman

If the the dog or dogs or tracking though the line , as you say "smells the line" the dog or dogs do not have to bark and you must give them the line! thats the rules.
I like a dog to claim the line to, but thats not the rules.

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I think that were all getting a little closer to the answer, Mike, I do see in that exact situation what your saying. In your situation, due to what the rules say, score the dog or dogs that come through the line, if trailing but not opening, then the first dog that opens, no matter either before or after the line, that you feel moves the track forward, then reward that dog the check. I can see that. Okay, there has been times like I stated earlier, that a track breaks down before the established line, then a dog did open and score on through the line and recieved both a check and a line. how I look at it is this, if their broke down, and one dog opens and scores, and results some or all of the remaining pack to rejoin the track, scoring the line or not should receive the check. If that dog didn't open, the track would've been dead.

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The answer is........ YES A DOG CAN SCORE a line while in a check. no where in the rules does it say a dog must be barking to score speed and drive, as long as he trails through the line hes scored. I've had it happen to me and also scored others on it. one situation was a line was called and the track broke down and went into a check, my dog came in the area of the line barked once or twice trailed through the line and blew up again, no check was awarded 100 line points were given to my dog and when the 3 minutes were up all dogs went -50. Forward progress has nothing to do with this situation, the clock never stopped but the dog trailed through the marked line but did not make enough progress to recieve a recovery, thus meaning plus strike plus 100 line -20 (deleted) and -50

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oH I SEE

i see what you are saying. if a dog comes through on a line even if not in a check he gets it. So in that case in a loss where a dog has no clue where the track is, and just happens to cross the line it gets it. makes perfect sense to me. seeing how they are in a loss and not running it, barking or not, i will need to remember it because it happens alot of times.
Now that you mention it Scott i was with you on that cast. It was at nationals in the 16 round. about 3 years ago. up at your place.

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Iraq Vet, 03-05, 05-07, 09-10

Phone number 270-820-5560

scott is right

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I was on a cast aprox. 3 yrs ago with Todd Morgan judging. 4dogs in the cast. All 4 dogs are struck and go into a check. About 2 minutes and 30 seconds into check rabbit comes out of brush pile and crosses lane in front of judge and handlers. A line was called. One dog picks up check by himself and is barreling towards spot that line was called. Todd says "he better hurry he only has five seconds to make line. The dog made the line with about a second to spare before 3 minute clock got the dogs for no forward progress. The dog was scored for speed and drive and then all hounds were picked up for no forward progress. This happened when the rule was that majority of cast had to be in before a recovery was awarded. Because of the way the rule was written back then. The one dog getting the recovery by himself wasnt enough to reward the recovery to that dog. Therefore all the dogs were handled for no forward progress, but the dog still was rewarded speed and drive. Therefore meaning a recovery doesnt have to be made in order to score speed and drive.

Mike