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-- Rules Question:Dog sitting at tree when judge arrives (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=222734)

Rules Question:Dog sitting at tree when judge arrives

In a Nite Champion cast dogs A, B, and C have been struck and treed in that order. Dog D does not open at all and is sitting at the tree when the cast arrives and is not barking. (Dog D has shown to the cast that it is not a silent mouth dog earlier in the cast) The tree is shined and a possum is found. Dogs A, B, and C are scratched. What should happen to dog D? Does this come down to what "treeing" is? Does a dog have to bark to be considered treed? Remember dog D was never struck in, so can it be considered treed if it was never struck? Does this rueling change if dog D was struck in with dogs A, B, and C but never barks at the tree?

I hope we can have some good discussion on this one.

VB

I'm pretty sure that a dog has to be declared struck before it can be declared treed lol......The dog would've been shut out if he never opened up and was struck in before the other dogs treed.....

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Dog D is hunting the rest of the cast by himself.No way to prove he was running off game.If he would have been struck with the other dogs an arguement could be made he was running off game but for him to just be there not saying a word and not having been struck in pretty tough to say he ran it.Granted if he knows enough to know he don't want to strike or tree on it he should have went on but thats neither here nor there.LOL

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Heres a little twist though,when A,B and C were treeing can you say for 100% that D never barked(not even once or twice).Dog wouldn't have to be struck if he barked at all.

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I would scratch him. The dog was there before the cast arrived and is guilty by association. The dog should not have stayed.

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chew , would you have plussed that dog on a coon?

cant minus or scratch what you couldnt plus canya?!?!?!

He is scratched. The dog is at tree when the judge arrives so the dog must be handled. Any dog handled at an off-game tree would be scratched.

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
He is scratched. 4(g) is the rule that covers this one. A dog that is at a tree when the judge arrives is to be handled and scored as being at the tree.

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I don't think the dog has to be showing treed. I think the ruling is that, first, the dog must be handled because it is at the tree. The second factor is that the dog was there when the judge arrives. And any dog that is at an offgame tree when the judge arrives is scratched(NtCh). It doesn't have to be struck in, it doesn't have to be treeing. If it is there at the tree when the judge arrives, it is scratched. That is my understanding of the rule. Don't ask me if it is fair, etc. I'm just saying that I believe the rule requires that dog to be scratched for offgame.

You would have to be there

I'm going to say it's up to the Judge to decide that. Look under Scratchable Offences. If the Judge determines that the dog did indeed help trail or tree (ex. sitting down and looking up) then I would say you have grounds to scratch them, along with the other dogs.

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I would say you cannot scratch the dog. 6(k) says running (struck and opening on track), treeing (barking at tree) or molesting (crunching on the critter). He did none of those.

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Re: chew , would you have plussed that dog on a coon?

quote:

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Originally posted by ronald schultz
cant minus or scratch what you couldnt plus canya?!?!?!

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Well if a dog is declared treed and is handled at the tree but not barking a lick, that dog can still get plussed with a coon if another dog is barking because only one dog has to be barking.

"Sitting at the tree when the cast arrives" So there is no question the dog was at the tree when the judge arrived. There is no question the dog must be handled under rule 17("Dogs at tree must be leashed") I think any dog that is at the tree when the judge arrives and is handled at that tree would be scratched for any offgame. But after checking the Advisor, I see this one is right out of page 104. And Todd said the same thing there that he is saying here, don't scratch. So there we have it.

and ya wonder why people are staying out of the Nite Hunt game! If it was a coon would you plus the dog that's just sitting there?

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Thanks guys! That makes sense. We discussed this one at the club Saturday night and I wanted to see what the correct answer is.

Virgil

That is my point! Yes, if the dog was decalred treed and another dog was there treeing, then yes that dog that is just sitting there would be plussed.

I have another question that kinda goes along with this one. Rule 4(g) treeing but not declared treed. Suppose that dog was under a slick tree. Would that dog be asigned next avaiable position on the tree and minused those tree points? I would haver said yes but if you can't scratch that dog under the possum, then I don't guess you can minus that dog under a slick with rule 4(g).
I had always thought any dog handled under a slick when the judge arrived would be assigned tree points and minused but apparently not if we are gonna be consistant with Todds possum ruling.

Mr Flores, these rule questions are a constant learning process, atleast they are for me. More than once I have been sure I was correct only to find out I was completely wrong. I learned something everytime. To say people stay out of the hunts because honest mistakes can be made is about as lame as it gets. Did you pick up your ball and go home everytime the ref made a bad call?

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
That is my point! Yes, if the dog was decalred treed and another dog was there treeing, then yes that dog that is just sitting there would be plussed.

I have another question that kinda goes along with this one. Rule 4(g) treeing but not declared treed. Suppose that dog was under a slick tree. Would that dog be asigned next avaiable position on the tree and minused those tree points? I would haver said yes but if you can't scratch that dog under the possum, then I don't guess you can minus that dog under a slick with rule 4(g).
I had always thought any dog handled under a slick when the judge arrived would be assigned tree points and minused but apparently not if we are gonna be consistant with Todds possum ruling.

Mr Flores, these rule questions are a constant learning process, atleast they are for me. More than once I have been sure I was correct only to find out I was completely wrong. I learned something everytime. To say people stay out of the hunts because honest mistakes can be made is about as lame as it gets. Did you pick up your ball and go home everytime the ref made a bad call?

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Sheep, have you ever in your life made a post on here that didn't mention a mean dog??????

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
Sheep, have you ever in your life made a post on here that didn't mention a mean dog??????

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I would have scratched this dog & still would ! NTCH handled at tree with off game SCRATCHED barking or not - Reg. cast award next avalible tree points & minus

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I was not treed we arrived and AFTER we arrive my dog starts treeing. Judge said he was just sitting on oppisite side of the tree not treeing , just sitting there, when he arrived. They had a slick so he gave me next avaible and minused me with them. Guess I shouldn't of been minused cause he wasn't treeing when judge arrived. open cast

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quote:

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Originally posted by roverdog
I would have scratched this dog & still would ! NTCH handled at tree with off game SCRATCHED barking or not - Reg. cast award next avalible tree points & minus

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I can't remember if it was Todd Or Alan, But one of the two said a few years ago to scratch .. Said it was guilty by association..
I do think the scenerio was a little different though. I think is was a opossum caught on ground and 2 or 3 dogs had it but the other dog was there with them.
Would this be any different than being at the tree but not treeing?

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quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
That is my point! Yes, if the dog was decalred treed and another dog was there treeing, then yes that dog that is just sitting there would be plussed.

I have another question that kinda goes along with this one. Rule 4(g) treeing but not declared treed. Suppose that dog was under a slick tree. Would that dog be asigned next avaiable position on the tree and minused those tree points? I would haver said yes but if you can't scratch that dog under the possum, then I don't guess you can minus that dog under a slick with rule 4(g).
I had always thought any dog handled under a slick when the judge arrived would be assigned tree points and minused but apparently not if we are gonna be consistant with Todds possum ruling.

Mr Flores, these rule questions are a constant learning process, atleast they are for me. More than once I have been sure I was correct only to find out I was completely wrong. I learned something everytime. To say people stay out of the hunts because honest mistakes can be made is about as lame as it gets. Did you pick up your ball and go home everytime the ref made a bad call?

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This is sort of off topic, but what I don't understand is the following:

Yes, night hunt rules are sometimes vague. The hunters ask for examples of using the rules for clarification sake. UKC provides them for us, and individuals still refuse to apply the rules.

I just don't get it!

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