UKC Forums - Is 100 pups too much????

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-- Is 100 pups too much???? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=219737)

Posted by K. Singletary on 07-22-2008 03:44 PM:

Is 100 pups too much????

In order for a sire to show on the top reproducers list they have to sire 100 pups. For all the off colored breeds and probably some walkers it takes a long time to get 100 pups. Most males will be way past their prime when the 100 pup mark is achieved. Who thinks this # should be reduced? And what would be a good number?

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Posted by josh on 07-22-2008 04:24 PM:

I agree....

But at the same time I dont put much stock in the reproducers list anyway....IMO it is too often manipulated, lowering the # of pups would probably make it worse.

Posted by M.TARLTON on 07-22-2008 04:58 PM:

I really dont see a need to lower the number of pups required I would really like to change the Historical from less than 25 years old to unlimited I want to know who was the best all time not just the last 25 years. JMO

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Posted by COONDOG on 07-22-2008 05:03 PM:

I agree with the historical, and the current as well. With stored and frozen semen as readily available as it is it just dont seem fair. For example if the father to Grit dog was alive he would be on the list. He can still sire pups, but cant be recognized, because he has been dead for nearly that long.

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Posted by Travis Brown on 07-22-2008 05:08 PM:

Lowering the number to less than 100 would cause more sires to get on the list from one good cross that was made several times. That sire may not be able to cross on several different bloodlines so it shouldn't be in the top producers list.

Knowing the top sires prior to 25 years ago would be interesting but probably not helpful in breeding good dogs because those sires would be too far back in most pedigrees to help much.

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Posted by M.TARLTON on 07-22-2008 05:14 PM:

I also think that the historical should also go by percentage and not total number of Ntch and Grntch. If a dog sires 100 pups and a total of 25 Ntch and Grntch and another dog sires 500 pups and a total of 100 ntchs and grntch whos the better reproducer? The one who had the 25 ntch and Grntch he had the better percentage.

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Posted by mike bryant on 07-22-2008 05:39 PM:

I think that the number of perm. registered pups is what it should be based. If you use 100 or whatever it should be perm. reg. dogs not just pup papered dogs. Only perm. reg. dogs can hunt in a hunt.

I also think that the dogs that win performance points at events should be dna 'd before or after the hunt.

JMO

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Posted by Justin Smith on 07-22-2008 06:08 PM:

Three or four different females is enough to tell if a dog is going to reproduce well or not ..

..but that isn't the point of the Producers List ... it is to promote participation in the hunts and increase registration fees .

.. I'm sure they figured 100 pups was the highest minumum they could set and still get a real high % of stud owners to go after.

UKC does a real good job of balancing their business goals with what is good for coonhunters .. but let's not expect them to sacrifice their sales in order to make a good program just a little better

Posted by Brad Roe on 07-22-2008 06:35 PM:

I see the rationale behind this question. The Current Reproducers List is a tool for the breeder in my opinion. By the time the B&T, Bltk., Eng., Plt., and Red breeds top reproducers can reach 100 pups the stud is already, just a guess but I would say close to 8 years old maybe older.

What if the potential of this stud had been realized years earlier, what kind of impact could he have made to his breed?

I don't know what the right number is, but what I do know is that Walker studs will reach their 100 pups by 3-4 I would say on average, not the other breeds.

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Posted by mike bryant on 07-22-2008 07:37 PM:

JMO

I Think thier is a reason for the walkers reaching the 100 pups so fast. thru the years walker people have tried to breed for performance(not trying to get an argument started). So you get faster starting pups. Now the trouble is they sometimes are Quick treeing-babbling idiots (I know I have had plenty of them) but a lot of them get out of that. The other breeds just now seam to be starting or at least in the last 10 years catching up. Mostly with the (I can't believe I am about to say it)Blueticks then English & Black n Tans the Redbone and Plotts bringing up the rear for different reason the Redbone being breed for color and the Plott for big game. Now I am not saying that any of these breeds don't have real coon dogs in each breed but the overwhelming amount comes from the Walker dogs.

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Posted by jackbob42 on 07-23-2008 01:52 AM:

Maybe if they put out a list with the top ten " not on the list " , it might get them to their 100 pups faster.

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Posted by Maniac on 07-23-2008 01:56 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by M.TARLTON
I also think that the historical should also go by percentage and not total number of Ntch and Grntch. If a dog sires 100 pups and a total of 25 Ntch and Grntch and another dog sires 500 pups and a total of 100 ntchs and grntch whos the better reproducer? The one who had the 25 ntch and Grntch he had the better percentage.

I AGREE

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Posted by Christy on 07-23-2008 09:23 PM:

I'VE SAID IT BEFORE AND I'LL SAY IT AGAIN.

WHEN FIGURING CURRENT REPRODUCTION, THE PERCENTAGE SHOULD NOT BE BASED ON TOTAL NUMBER OF PUPS PRODUCED.

REASON BEING ONLY A UKC PERMANENTLY REGISTERED DOG CAN BE ENTERED INTO A HUNT TO EARN A TITLE.

A DOG CAN HAVE 100 PUPS PRODUCED, BUT ONLY 30 OR SO PERMANENTLY REGISTERED.

IF IT'S NOT PERMANENTLY REGISTERED IT SHOULDNT BE FIGURED INTO THE PERCENTAGE.

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Posted by John D on 07-23-2008 09:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by josh
I agree....

But at the same time I dont put much stock in the reproducers list anyway....IMO it is too often manipulated, lowering the # of pups would probably make it worse.

I see it the same way but I do see the TRL as a tool. It is useful for the sake of comparision.

If one, promoted, known stud has a much higher percentage than another promoted, known stud, then I think one is better than the other.

However, if one unknown, nonpromoted stud has 30 pups and sitting at 20% from breeding average females without even trying to be a "stud dog", then my money is on him as being better, more dominant producer than anything on the TRL, past or present.

I think you also have to look at some of the studs high on the lists. Some have been promoted to be stud dogs from the time they were a year old. They were bred to just a few real good females to get quality pups early on. Pups were placed in hands to get them comp. hunted. Maybe some of those pups' papers went to hunts with other dogs? Money can buy alot. Waa-laa, several win and now the headlines read that he's a dominant stud. So, who owns and how the stud is handled might be worth several % points, up or down, imo.

Bottom line these lists are a tool. Constant modifications to the tool ain't gonna help build anything better.

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Posted by K. Singletary on 07-24-2008 09:27 PM:

I only watch the B&T list and what I have seen over the last few years is an 8 or 9 year old dog pop up on the list with barely 100 pups and that dog not be able to breed females 6 months after his name showed up. I'm afraid we may miss that diamond in the rough, if he is owned by someone that doesn't have the means to promote him. Who knows, we may have already missed him.

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Posted by Autumn Clements on 02-03-2009 02:59 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by mike bryant
I think that the number of perm. registered pups is what it should be based. If you use 100 or whatever it should be perm. reg. dogs not just pup papered dogs. Only perm. reg. dogs can hunt in a hunt.

quote:
Originally posted by Christy
I'VE SAID IT BEFORE AND I'LL SAY IT AGAIN.
WHEN FIGURING CURRENT REPRODUCTION, THE PERCENTAGE SHOULD NOT BE BASED ON TOTAL NUMBER OF PUPS PRODUCED.
REASON BEING ONLY A UKC PERMANENTLY REGISTERED DOG CAN BE ENTERED INTO A HUNT TO EARN A TITLE.
A DOG CAN HAVE 100 PUPS PRODUCED, BUT ONLY 30 OR SO PERMANENTLY REGISTERED.
IF IT'S NOT PERMANENTLY REGISTERED IT SHOULDNT BE FIGURED INTO THE PERCENTAGE.

but if that was the case what would some people do, wait and register the pups after they're starting, and the the culls that aren't registered aren't being figured into the percentage.

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Posted by Barry Brown on 02-03-2009 03:14 AM:

I dont think a dog should be on the list with less than 300 pups. Look at the dog at the top of the list now he has around 150 pups. This dog could have one good cross put him in the top. He shows 4 grands. I know of crosses that have that many grands out of one litter. When you start putting dogs that have his kind of age on the list with only 150 pups that shows me that people are NOT breeding to him for one reason or another. I dont know the dog but I do know he has been around for a while and to only have 150 at his age is not that great. You look at the other dogs on the list that have 934,501,1163,997,1290 with number like this you can tell what the dog can reproduce and not what just 2 or 3 litters have done. Now if the dog is only 2 or 3 that is one thing to have 150 pups but if they are 8 that is another.

Posted by John M. Horner on 02-03-2009 03:43 AM:

Cornell just turned three and the last set of papers said he has 84 pups on the ground and I know he has 5 since that. So I guess the Walkers do reach it quicker I didn't realize that!!

Posted by Dan Dogs on 02-03-2009 03:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Travis Brown
Lowering the number to less than 100 would cause more sires to get on the list from one good cross that was made several times. That sire may not be able to cross on several different bloodlines so it shouldn't be in the top producers list.

Knowing the top sires prior to 25 years ago would be interesting but probably not helpful in breeding good dogs because those sires would be too far back in most pedigrees to help much.

how many pups do the females have? whats to keep them from making the same crosses over and over..i have a male that probably wont get a 100 pups but has had a 20+% on 3 different crosses..after next yr he wont be eligable because he will be over 12yrs of age..i have seven straws of semen that wont count for his reproducing record when he's gone..

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Posted by JustinM on 02-03-2009 05:26 AM:

Can you find the list on the internet or only in the bloodlines?

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Posted by daustin on 02-03-2009 05:56 AM:

I forget stats class, but one reason that they have a minimum of 100 is because anything less may be statistically insignificant.

Without getting the book out and figuring the exact number it works like this:
Dog A has 75 pups on the ground with 10 being GRNite/NiteCh
Dog B has 65 pups on the ground with 12 being GRNite/NiteCh

The actual statistics would say that there is no difference in their reproduction ability.

The difference may be significant at the over 100 mark.

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Posted by roughcreek on 02-03-2009 04:48 PM:

I THINK IF MORE PEOPLE PAYED ATTENTION TO THE P.A.D. ON THEIR PEDEGREE THEY WOULD SEE THESE DOGS THAT ARE REALLY REPRODUCING BEFORE A DOG GETS ITS 100 PUPS. THIS IS THE MAIN TOOL I USE WHEN CHOOSING A STUD OR A FEMALE FOR BREEDING. I WANT THE HIGHEST PERCENTAGE I CAN FIND ON EVERY THING IN A PEDEGREE. IF A DOG HAD 6 PUPS & 2 OR 3 MADE IT, I LOOK AT THAT JUST AS HARD AS A DOG WITH 500 PUPS. STACK IT UP WITH REPRODUCERS & NO MATTER WHERE THE GENES COME FROM I FEEL YOU GOT A BETTER CHANCE TO GET WHAT IT TAKES TO WIN & REPRODUCE. LOOK AT A PEDEGREE & ITS FULL OF NO DEGREE, NO DEGREE, NO DEGREE ON ANCESTERS PUPS & YOU GET A STUD OR A FEMALE WITH A FARLY HIGH PERCENTAGE, I WONT EVEN LOOK AT IT.

YES HISTORIC SHOULD GO BY % & NOT #'S. GET YOUR 100 & DOG HAS A % DOUBLE WHAT A DOG WITH 500 PUPS HAS, WHO IS THE BETTER REPRODUCER.

Posted by Chris Herring on 02-03-2009 05:16 PM:

I'd like to see UKC mix it up a bit; One month make it based on numbers, the next month make it based on percentage, then repeat by numbers with the minimum reduced to 50 pups, repeat again by percentage with minimum reduced to 50 pups...Change it up, the way it is now we have only one set of data to use when making our decisions, if they mix it up we can compare data sets, those of ya'll that are smart enough could trend data based on the different sets of data...
What I am saying is that I agree in reducing from 100 pups, but would like to see multiple datasets used, I can think of 6 good datasets, that means only twice a year it would be calculated the same way. To me it would make the list something I looked forward to because I know it might be different each month.

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Posted by daustin on 02-03-2009 05:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Herring
I'd like to see UKC mix it up a bit; One month make it based on numbers, the next month make it based on percentage, then repeat by numbers with the minimum reduced to 50 pups, repeat again by percentage with minimum reduced to 50 pups...Change it up, the way it is now we have only one set of data to use when making our decisions, if they mix it up we can compare data sets, those of ya'll that are smart enough could trend data based on the different sets of data...
What I am saying is that I agree in reducing from 100 pups, but would like to see multiple datasets used, I can think of 6 good datasets, that means only twice a year it would be calculated the same way. To me it would make the list something I looked forward to because I know it might be different each month.

Maybe they would be willing to send you the data on half a million dogs or so. That way you can sit and calculate the data on a volenteer basis.

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Posted by on 02-03-2009 05:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Autumn Clements
but if that was the case what would some people do, wait and register the pups after they're starting, and the the culls that aren't registered aren't being figured into the percentage.

I dont know about others but that is what I do now.

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