UKC Forums - great coondogs

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Posted by elvis on 04-24-2008 09:37 AM:

great coondogs

are very rare , regardless of what you may read on a message board or in a magazine, very few great coondogs exsist.

it is human nature to believe that our dog is better than it actualy is, and is also the human nature to be jealous of, and to find fault with, the lucky few that are fortunate enough to have one of those rare dogs.

I find the threads about genetics and breeding interesting , yet amuseing. It seems to me those that study and educate themselves the most on the subject, dont know one bit more about it than bill hill up the road with his 3rd grade education.
If they did, they would have better coondogs than he did.
The proof is in the pudding,so to speak.

I have came to the conclusion, that one can only breed for consistantly decent coondogs with the traits that we desire, such as color,comfirmation,mouth,etc. But to raise a pup that is freakishly good in ability is just dumb luck, and one can not predict when and where the next great coondog will come from.

I see certain lines of dogs do quite a bit of winning by beating the system. A dog that always has first strike on who knows what,many times nothing,and always gets by himself so he dont have to compete with another dog on the same easy coon,will do a tremendous amount of winning,but it sure doesnt make him a great coondog.

anyhow,i couldnt sleep,so i got on the classifieds, and after reading about all the great dogs and puppies for sale, i just had to rant and rave for a bit.

Posted by GRAVEDIGGER on 04-24-2008 09:43 AM:

Very good and true post.

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Posted by coonhunterky on 04-24-2008 10:41 AM:

wat

i like is a DOG THAT CAN RUN A COLD TRACK LIKE IT IS HOT AND HAVE THE COON ON THE END,but there is not maney ,most people now days breed for a go younder dog that gets off to its sealf,that is hot nosed so they drow no minus on thoes hot tracks,,a coon dog is verry few around it has always been that way but gets worse as time goes on,,my belife is rase your owen dogs and train them,,

Posted by coonhunterky on 04-24-2008 11:31 AM:

elvis

where is the best COON DOG you know of,just coures,,not tittels but a true COON DOG

Posted by jculler8 on 04-24-2008 12:06 PM:

Elvis

I totally agree... A "great" coondog is a once in a lifetime experience... That's just how rare they really are!

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Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 04-24-2008 12:21 PM:

Elvis you are 100% correct. Great post.

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Posted by Hoosier on 04-24-2008 12:46 PM:

BINGO !!!!!!!

We have a winner. Elvis you should NEVER run for public office, you are far to truthful!

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Posted by Ray&Luie on 04-24-2008 12:56 PM:

coon dogs

I agree with most of what you said Elvis, but some times dogs look better in the places that they are hunted as aposse to in other areas, this is not a slam by no means to no ones hound , but just like walker days, here in LA, you wouldent be scoring no 1000 + points mainly because the coon are not that easy to tree and there not that easy to get to some times .

Posted by jculler8 on 04-24-2008 01:04 PM:

Re: coon dogs

quote:
Originally posted by Ray&Luie
I agree with most of what you said Elvis, but some times dogs look better in the places that they are hunted as aposse to in other areas, this is not a slam by no means to no ones hound , but just like walker days, here in LA, you wouldent be scoring no 1000 + points mainly because the coon are not that easy to tree and there not that easy to get to some times .

I may be wrong here, but I don't think Elvis is talking about scores...

Posted by Ray&Luie on 04-24-2008 01:22 PM:

Re: Re: coon dogs

quote:
Originally posted by jculler8
I may be wrong here, but I don't think Elvis is talking about scores...

I know what hes talking about, and i agree whole hartedly with the idea cooon dogs are slim and not in most cases, but if you are going to compaire greatness you have to look at what has been acomplished ,in a Geographical sence," I know Coon Dogs Teee Coons" but is your Coon dog going to look great doing it where mine looks Great,doing it.

The proof will be next year when the hunt is in Eastern Ky and if the same dogs that won this year get to hunt what will be there Scores and how did they look in a diffrent patch of woods

Posted by Ray&Luie on 04-24-2008 01:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Doug Johnson
Ray&Luie, two things. First, I heard that Walker days will be in Cadiz, Ky. That's in the far western part of Ky, just east of the land between the lakes and close to most of the big PKC hunts.
Big difference between east and west Ky.
Second, I don't think Elvis' post is talking about were a dog looks good because the kind of dog he's talking about looks like a different breed of animal anywhere it's dropped.

"That was a typo Doug about Ky" sorry, yeah i know the areas are diffrent that was my point, I am not taking isuee with elvis bye no means like i said i agree with the idea great Hounds just dont fall off the tree every day , iv Coon Hunted for over 35 years and have hunted with some ok to good to fair to plain out sorry Coon Dogs so i know what the mesuring sticks are lol
some times folks will get caught up in the numbers and the trophies and think wow hes got somthing great, and he may have but we all know some times they are on and some times well they arent

Posted by John Carroll on 04-24-2008 01:46 PM:

Elvis, this may be one of the most truthful posts written on this forum lately.

I am not a big participant in the nite hunts, partly because I am a pastor and I don't feel like it is right for me to be out all night on Saturday night and not be at my best on Sunday morning. But that isn't the only reason.

I do hunt probably about as hard as a lot of serious nite hunters, and am pretty serious about trying to raise and hunt a good hound.

What impresses me the most is a dog that can overhaul other dogs on the same track consistently and beat them--not that "get-by-himself" artist that blows through the country looking for a pop up coon to tree without competition, and that is what a lot of the winners do.

Actually, one of the things that thrills me the most in coon hunting is a topnotch track dog that can run the hair off a coon, hot or cold, and make it look easy.

They aren't thick on the ground in any breed.

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Posted by Jason Miller on 04-24-2008 01:47 PM:

If you hunt hard and train right. You will have way more than one great coondog at the end of your leash in a lifetime, but if the genetics are not there you will have a hard time of making a coondog.

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Posted by Kenny Eads on 04-24-2008 02:00 PM:

WHats your def. of great? I know I have seen a few very good coondogs, but what makes one great? My idea of great would be tree a coon or den everytime you cut them. I don't believe one exists.If you have one I want to go hunting with it, a couple times. lol They maybe great one night and just a coondog the next.

Posted by Ray&Luie on 04-24-2008 02:44 PM:

coon dogs

quote:
Originally posted by Kenny Eads
WHats your def. of great? I know I have seen a few very good coondogs, but what makes one great? My idea of great would be tree a coon or den everytime you cut them. I don't believe one exists.If you have one I want to go hunting with it, a couple times. lol They maybe great one night and just a coondog the next.

I think the Def is Consistancy , is your hound going to be close to or near the same on a regular basis, he dosent have to tree a coon every time but hes has to be trying every time to make as few mistakes as he can, iv gone to the woods many times and not treed coon but i thought i had a desent hunt with my dog because my dog did his part . he hunted , he didnt trash and if he treed he either had the coon or he did all he could to find one

Posted by jculler8 on 04-24-2008 02:58 PM:

Re: coon dogs

quote:
Originally posted by Ray&Luie
I think the Def is Consistancy , is your hound going to be close to or near the same on a regular basis, he dosent have to tree a coon every time but hes has to be trying every time to make as few mistakes as he can, iv gone to the woods many times and not treed coon but i thought i had a desent hunt with my dog because my dog did his part . he hunted , he didnt trash and if he treed he either had the coon or he did all he could to find one

I think CONSISTENCY is the key... you hear of a lot of dogs that looked "great" last weekend and the next they couldn't lick their way out of a wet paper bag. Or a dog that was once "great"... in "his day". A dog that can go out night in and night out and make you open your eyes and say "Wow, now that's a coondog!" is something great.

A lot of people have different definitions of "great" though...

Posted by chris simmons on 04-24-2008 03:02 PM:

Good post Elvis.

Here is what I like a hound to do.

I love one to go hunting.When I cut it loose, do not come to me, I will come to you.

Not run any trash.

Not be mean.

Once treed, STAY.

Tree coons.

And, once a track is started, Finish it...

I have been hunting for 25 yrs and I have never had a great dog.But I sure have had some awful good ones.

Hopefully, I will have a great one , one of these days..

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Posted by Ray&Luie on 04-24-2008 03:08 PM:

coon dogs

quote:
Originally posted by chris simmons
Good post Elvis.

Here is what I like a hound to do.

I love one to go hunting.When I cut it loose, do not come to me, I will come to you.

Not run any trash.

Not be mean.

Once treed, STAY.

Tree coons.

And, once a track is started, Finish it...

I have been hunting for 25 yrs and I have never had a great dog.But I sure have had some awful good ones.

Hopefully, I will have a great one , one of these days..

Dito ! Nuff said

Posted by larrypoe on 04-24-2008 03:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Kenny Eads
WHats your def. of great? I know I have seen a few very good coondogs, but what makes one great? My idea of great would be tree a coon or den everytime you cut them. I don't believe one exists.If you have one I want to go hunting with it, a couple times. lol They maybe great one night and just a coondog the next.

Don't let Kenny fool ya. He had one I hunted for most of a year before I ever saw a slick tree, and very few dens. Ol Shaker was a nice hound that just went out there and did his best to put as many coon over his head a night as he could regardless of what the rest of the dogs were doing.

I liked the piss out of him.

I agree the greats are rare and always will be, that's what makes them great. If there were more like them they would be normal not great. LOL.

That being said I thing extra attention to pedigrees and hunting styles increases your odds of getting one of those greats.

Then there's the fact that not everyone agrees with the standard for "great". I happen to like a dog that goes its own way most of the time.

You could have the fastest track dog that ever lived and if I shoot a coon out to another dog within sight of it split treed and it moves, I would consider it a cull or average at best. If I walk to more than a handfull of empty trees in a years time, I wont fallow it very long.

There are 2 dogs laying on my bed right now that are the best examples of the kind of dog I want to hunt Ive ever seen in all the years Ive coonhunted. That fits my definition of great. Ive cut them on opposite sides of the road and shot coon out to both with the other split. When Im hide hunting I can cover twice as much ground by cutting them in opposite directions.

Both are in the accuracy range of the Shaker dog of Kenny's I mentioned earlier.

and there full brother/sister.

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Posted by Travis P on 04-24-2008 03:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by chris simmons
Good post Elvis.

Here is what I like a hound to do.

I love one to go hunting.When I cut it loose, do not come to me, I will come to you.

Not run any trash.

Not be mean.

Once treed, STAY.

Tree coons.

And, once a track is started, Finish it...

I have been hunting for 25 yrs and I have never had a great dog.But I sure have had some awful good ones.

Hopefully, I will have a great one , one of these days..

I like the same characteristics in a hound. I have one of the best dogs Ive ever seen go at my house right now. Billy Carter brought it over and said it hasnt been hunted in over a year and he didnt know if it would do anything great again but for me to try. The first night out he left in a dead run and got first strike and first tree on my buddys dog and has never looked back. Now that impresses me because Ive seen some real good dogs get laid up for 6 months to a year and would not do anything for awhile.

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Posted by T Felderman on 04-24-2008 03:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jason Miller
If you hunt hard and train right. You will have way more than one great coondog at the end of your leash in a lifetime, but if the genetics are not there you will have a hard time of making a coondog.

agreed

Posted by Oak Ridge on 04-24-2008 04:48 PM:

Re: great coondogs

quote:
Originally posted by elvis
are very rare , regardless of what you may read on a message board or in a magazine, very few great coondogs exsist.

it is human nature to believe that our dog is better than it actualy is, and is also the human nature to be jealous of, and to find fault with, the lucky few that are fortunate enough to have one of those rare dogs.

I find the threads about genetics and breeding interesting , yet amuseing. It seems to me those that study and educate themselves the most on the subject, dont know one bit more about it than bill hill up the road with his 3rd grade education.
If they did, they would have better coondogs than he did.
The proof is in the pudding,so to speak.

I have came to the conclusion, that one can only breed for consistantly decent coondogs with the traits that we desire, such as color,comfirmation,mouth,etc. But to raise a pup that is freakishly good in ability is just dumb luck, and one can not predict when and where the next great coondog will come from.

I see certain lines of dogs do quite a bit of winning by beating the system. A dog that always has first strike on who knows what,many times nothing,and always gets by himself so he dont have to compete with another dog on the same easy coon,will do a tremendous amount of winning,but it sure doesnt make him a great coondog.

anyhow,i couldnt sleep,so i got on the classifieds, and after reading about all the great dogs and puppies for sale, i just had to rant and rave for a bit.

elvis,

I've always stood in your corner as one of the truly wise men of our sport. And once again, you've made some profound statements.

I may well be one of those guys that talks about genetics, but does not know one bit more about it than bill hill the 3rd grader.... However, I do know this. Truly great dogs are freaks...simple as that. Not any more than the Micheal Jordan's, Tiger Woods, or Johann Sebastian Bach. You simply can not breed for "talent" You can breed for type....and you can become satisfied with the type while waiting on that "special" one to come along.

Marv, you have had the pleasure to hunt with, lead, and yes to enter into competition more than your fair share of great ones. I'm not familiar with a single breeding program that those dogs have come from. They all seem to have some common ancestry, that would lead one to believe that "type" is at least important.

Not having the finances to go out and purchase a "great" one, I will continue to be fascinated by genetics, will continue to breed coon dog to coon dog, and continue to breed for "type", all the while being honest with myself about what's on the end of my lead, and wait patiently for my "great" one to be born. Who knows...it may have already been born, the rest is up to me.

I'm not always "satisfied" with what's on the end of my lead, but I'll get my share any night of the week. I'm satisfied with a good one, all the while waiting on the arrival of a great one.

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Posted by Ray&Luie on 04-24-2008 05:07 PM:

Re: Re: great coondogs

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge
elvis,

I've always stood in your corner as one of the truly wise men of our sport. And once again, you've made some profound statements.

I may well be one of those guys that talks about genetics, but does not know one bit more about it than bill hill the 3rd grader.... However, I do know this. Truly great dogs are freaks...simple as that. Not any more than the Micheal Jordan's, Tiger Woods, or Johann Sebastian Bach. You simply can not breed for "talent" You can breed for type....and you can become satisfied with the type while waiting on that "special" one to come along.

Marv, you have had the pleasure to hunt with, lead, and yes to enter into competition more than your fair share of great ones. I'm not familiar with a single breeding program that those dogs have come from. They all seem to have some common ancestry, that would lead one to believe that "type" is at least important.

Not having the finances to go out and purchase a "great" one, I will continue to be fascinated by genetics, will continue to breed coon dog to coon dog, and continue to breed for "type", all the while being honest with myself about what's on the end of my lead, and wait patiently for my "great" one to be born. Who knows...it may have already been born, the rest is up to me.

I'm not always "satisfied" with what's on the end of my lead, but I'll get my share any night of the week. I'm satisfied with a good one, all the while waiting on the arrival of a great one.

I think there are some equily profound coments here

Posted by chris simmons on 04-24-2008 05:15 PM:

Joe,

I have spoken to you once.But I can say this about you.You stick with one certain bloodline and you make it work for you.So hats off to you for that.I am sure you have very many many many steps behind what you have on your lead chain.

The problem I see with dogs these days are the Trainers.Even if you have that special "Freak Of Nature" someone can ruin it.

I believe it starts with good blood and the rest is up to hard work and fate.. jmo

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Posted by TBO kennels on 04-24-2008 05:27 PM:

GOOD POST,

I believe it all comes down to personal preference. If your happy with your hound than thats all that matters. Im not sure about everyone else but I hunt for me and not for anyone else. So if my dog is GREAT to me than thats all that matters. Ive seen lots of dogs have GREAT nights, but a true GREAT hound to me is one that has alot of GREAT nights. Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods all have bad days, weeks, months, and years but they are still GREAT but not perfect and niether is any hound.

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