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Feist/Rat Terrier Confusion

I guess I really should have done this first instead of my other post first..oh well better late then not at all..

I'm new not only to the forum...**waves** but also possible to Feist(This is a 'new' dog breed to me)..not Rat Terriers(seen these before)..How can this be you ask?? Well I just met a Feist a few mnths ago and thought they were the cutest dogs around.I wanted to get a breeding pair to take back with me to Canada,where I live, or get a pair sooner or later if/when I found what I was looking for...but..in my researching the Feist breed I found out that the Feist breed and RT breed are one in the same breed of dog..??..Is this so??..please let me know if this is true.Makes for searching information and breeders so much easier..or..if they are different breeds how..or..if they are similar breeds how.I would appreciate any web sites to breeders in Canada or USA or where to find information..thanks

__________________
AB
**Quote**
As for rumors that fly
around the internet, you can believe what you want. Until its a
proven fact, its just that, a rumor!

That is far from the truth with my dogs here at Galla Creek Kennel



Larry

__________________
Galla Creek Kennel
Home of Old-Time Mtn. Feist
Squirrel Dogs
479 890 8090

Go to the website squirrel dog central. You will see this is not the case. There are a lot of good breeders with proven lines of tree dogs. Some Jacks may tree but all Jacks are not treedogs. They are ground dogs. A lot of rats may not tree either from what I hear. You can go to this site and check out the links page to find out some more.

__________________
GOD BLESS

??

Now I'm getting conflicting information..so I'm even more confused

__________________
AB
**Quote**
As for rumors that fly
around the internet, you can believe what you want. Until its a
proven fact, its just that, a rumor!

Basicly Feist and Cur can be a very broad range of dogs. I have a MT. Cur that could almost be reg as a Feist. As far as reg. dogs goes, they have a weight limit to meet. I don't remember off hand what the exact weight is but it's aroung 30 pounds. Under that amount dog is reg. as Feist. Over that amount dog is reg. as Cur. If you breed a cur and a feist together, pups will either be "Treeing Feist" or "Treeing Cur" depending on their weight.
I'm not 100% sure, but I believe you can single reg. a Rat Terrier as a Treeing Feist. No real reason to do so unless the dog is a good tree dog and you want to comp. hunt it. On the other hand if the RT is over the weight limit for Feist it becomes Treeing Cur.
Now in reality all dogs were mixed up somewhere untill someone gave it a name, bred for certain qualities, kept their strain "pure" and had papers put on it. I'm not real knowledgable about the Feist breed, but if I were to take a guess, I'd say they developed from the Terrier breed. Keep in mind, that's just a guess on my part. I would also guess that people had some dogs that took to treeing and started breeding them. Adding a little of this and that, gave it a name, and now we have the Feist dog.
Hope this helped a little.

Ed

I've always been taught a feist is a feist. Some rat terriers where breed in to (some) lines of feist down the years. But the true feist goes back to the ones the native americans had. What people call the old tyme mountain feist is the real deal.

Correct me if I am wrong,

but I thought that a feist's ears turned forward and a terrier's were erect. Would like some opinions, as I would like to know.

Diffrent lines of fiest have flipped over or erect ears. I've had some litters that half the pups flip over and half stand up. All my fiest I have now flip over. I think the desired trait for feist in ukc is flipped over ears. not for sure though.

I want my dogs ears to break over. I have 9 nice females and 2 Stud dogs and they all break over.

LARRY

__________________
Galla Creek Kennel
Home of Old-Time Mtn. Feist
Squirrel Dogs
479 890 8090

Ed
Thx that helped some of the confusion..

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ed B.
Basicly Feist and Cur can be a very broad range of dogs. I have a MT. Cur that could almost be reg as a Feist. As far as reg. dogs goes, they have a weight limit to meet. I don't remember off hand what the exact weight is but it's aroung 30 pounds. Under that amount dog is reg. as Feist. Over that amount dog is reg. as Cur. If you breed a cur and a feist together, pups will either be "Treeing Feist" or "Treeing Cur" depending on their weight.
I'm not 100% sure, but I believe you can single reg. a Rat Terrier as a Treeing Feist. No real reason to do so unless the dog is a good tree dog and you want to comp. hunt it. On the other hand if the RT is over the weight limit for Feist it becomes Treeing Cur.
Now in reality all dogs were mixed up somewhere untill someone gave it a name, bred for certain qualities, kept their strain "pure" and had papers put on it. I'm not real knowledgable about the Feist breed, but if I were to take a guess, I'd say they developed from the Terrier breed. Keep in mind, that's just a guess on my part. I would also guess that people had some dogs that took to treeing and started breeding them. Adding a little of this and that, gave it a name, and now we have the Feist dog.
Hope this helped a little.

Ed

---

__________________
AB
**Quote**
As for rumors that fly
around the internet, you can believe what you want. Until its a
proven fact, its just that, a rumor!

DEVELOPMENT OF THE RAT TERRIER
(http://www.nrta.com/newratstandards2.html)

Has the Rat Terrier evolved to its own breed by being variable? Or is the Rat a cross between a Manchester Terrier and Smooth Fox Terrier only because that's how they came over to the USA from England? The Rat Terrier of today is not the same dog that originated in England. Dependent on their geographical location and purpose is what has given the Rat Terrier their direction and what they are today. The basis of their development is this; function came before form, now their form is a product of their functional development. When we speak of the Rat today, we are encompassing the entire process that the breed has gone through during the last 100 years or so.
The history of the breed as far as what breeds comprise the Rat Terrier are fairly clear cut. The complex issue lies within the various characteristics that each breed introduced. Taken from all available information that has been researched on the breed, we have compiled the following as the true makeup of Rat Terrier. It incorporates reasons for size, color and characteristic variations so widely seen.

The Rat Terrier's earliest history traces back to England and is closely linked with the Smooth Fox Terrier and Manchester Terrier. The oldest breeds known to comprise the Smooth Fox Terrier and Manchester Terrier are:

English White Terrier adding mild manner, gentility and nobility (now extinct)
Black and Tan Terrier added a hearty demeanor and keen senses
Bull-and-Terrier gave them feistiness, tenacity and stamina
Hinks' White Bull Terrier-created true grit and gaminess

Beagle, Whippet and Italian Greyhound were added to the above mix to complete their makeup. When these two breeds were combined their offspring were called Fyce, American (Feist).

Americanized history really begins in the 1890's when the first Fyce arrived in the United States. The first Rat Terriers (Feist) were exclusively black and tan colored, their ears buttoned over and they were approximately 18lbs, of medium size. The breed quickly established itself as an excellent ratter and small game hunter.

Breeds were continually added to these Rat Terriers dependent on the geographical location and purpose of the dog. Some breeders that used these dogs for hunting re-introduced Smooth Fox Terrier again. By selective breeding the predominance of white coloration was set leaving most of the color on the head of the dog. The white color was found to be an aide in helping to identify the dogs from the prey during the hunt. Other hunters added Greyhound for increasing speed and sighting ability. They also added a new range of colors; red, brindle, liver, chocolate, blue, black, fawn and cream to name a few. And some hunters added Beagle increasing the stockiness of the body giving them bulk and enhanced their hunting (scenting) ability. It also shortened the legs producing a dog capable of going to ground. The Spitz was even introduced for bear hunting purposes and accounts for an occasional throwback of long hair. Some of the original Feist dogs found their way being bred to yet other breeds and individual strains were developed along side the Rat Terrier. Some Feist strains known of today are the Treeing, Mountain, Squirrel, American and Bench Legged Feist.

Milton Decker, an early hunting enthusiast from Oregon who went on to develop his own strain (Decker Giant) writes this about the Rat Terrier. "In the Midwest and South these great little dogs are used extensively for hunting. Rat Terrier is synonymous with "squirrel dog". They are unequaled as a "jump dog" for deer wherever deer inhabit brushy regions. They will seek out the deer, jump him and chase him about 200 yards while yipping shrilly, then return to their master. For deer hunters, this makes them ideal for tracking up wounded animals. While many breeds will chase deer, many will keep going and the hunter ends up hunting for his dog instead of the deer.
Rat Terriers are excellent for upland game birds. Here their tendency is to hunt close, within shotgun range, and flush the birds. They are great to locate cripples and dead birds.
Of course, for rats, ground squirrels, rabbits, raccoons, opossums, feral house cats, etc., they are perfect. Some take to the water readily to retrieve ducks. Truly the all-around dog for pet, companion, hunting, or watch dog and are easy to keep because they need no grooming and eat less than larger breeds."

To complete the Rat Terrier more breeds were added that differed from the breeds that went into completing the Feist. In the earliest time of development the ear set was only of the button and tipped/semi-erect type. Whippet was introduced and is a cross of Manchester Terrier and Italian Greyhound. He donated refinement, speed, muscularity, agility and a wide variety of colors. The ear set of the Whippet was only of the rose type therefore; the Rats would now exhibited three types of ear sets. The Whippet introduced into the breed the Hairless Gene, which may have given rise to the American Hairless Terrier. This first came to light in a litter born to Willie and Edwin Scott of Louisiana in 1972.

The Chihuahua, Toy Fox Terrier and Toy Manchester introduced the erect ear set and all three brought down the size considerably making the Toy variety possible. Chihuahua added some new colors and the Toy Manchester reinforced the black and tan coloration. The introduction of the Whippet, Chihuahua, Toy Fox Terrier and Toy Manchester Terrier carry a strong influence on the Rat Terrier of today and were the conclusion to blood added in the makeup of the breed.

The Rat Terrier could now be seen in almost every known color, with 4 different ear sets (erect, semi-erect, rose and button over) and its size ranged from 4 to 35 pounds

As mentioned above the shorter leg length within the populace is attributed to the re-introduction of the Beagle and not the Jack Russell Terrier. The Smooth Pocket Beagle was used in the development of the Jack Russell Terrier to produce their shorter leg length. The shorter legs were necessary to fit into burrows when pursuing their prey. Both breeds share the Beagle as their only common link. Leg type exhibited in the Achondroplastic breeds (Dachshund, Corgi, Basset Hound, etc.) are never seen within the Rat Terrier. Genetically ruling out any involvement with these types.

The tail of the Rat Terrier holds some significance. They are commonly born with no tail or a tail that does not reach full length. These dogs are often referred to as "Natural Bobs".

The practice of tail docking has also been done on the Rat Terrier has since the beginning of their time. Their fast tail action often led to torn and bleeding tails that were painful and extremely difficult to treat. Docking the end of the tail eliminates the risk of injury. Terrier which are bred to hunt below ground for purposes such as fox control have their tails docked to a length which is more practical and conducive when working in a confined space.

About 200 years ago in England, tail docking started for certain breeds. English laws came into effect stating that dogs that worked for a living were exempt from tax. These working dogs were distinguished out by the docking of the tail.

The Rat Terrier is a breed of many breeds. All these breeds have brought in their own individual characteristics and traits. That may be why our Rats of today are so individual in looks and characteristics to a certain extent. Although they are very similar they are also very different from each other. In such a large populace, recessives will always pop to the forefront. Throwbacks from time to time will inevitably occur.

Given these inconsistencies, it is with great intent to isolate the breeding of the different sizes and 2 body styles of the Rat Terrier to like types. Some types may carry a heavier influence from an additional breed but all types come down from the basic Rat Terrier breed as such and should therefore remain all as Rat Terriers.

__________________
-SQ_Hunter_Gray

GRAY'S MOUNTAIN FEIST

http://graysmountainfeist.com/

From this and other evidence I have found, it appears that feist dogs were here in North America decades if not centuries before the dog that became the rat terrier was brought to these shores in the 1890's. I say "became" because there is some information that leads me to believe that the dogs that were brought over in the 1890's from England were crossed with what we already had here (feist) plus some other breeds or types of dogs to eventually become the rat terrier we know today. Abraham Lincoln wrote a poem about a bear hunt before the Civil War that mentioned Curs and Feist (fyce/fice) and that information was posted in Full Cry in an article as part of a "History of Curs." I looked it up and found it. George Washington wrote about feist (again he spelled it either fyce or fice...I don't remember which off the top of my head) in his diary way before 1890 (he died in 1799). So, if anyone asks you if feist were developed from rat terriers...I would say "no."

__________________
-SQ_Hunter_Gray

GRAY'S MOUNTAIN FEIST

http://graysmountainfeist.com/

Mark, that article was extremely informative to me. Makes me rethink some of the stuff I've come to believe about the rat terriers. Is anyone still breeding pure Deckers? Did Decker introduce any new blood to get the size or simply breed bigger ones?

Just curious.

Mike

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Bad River Feist

Michigan Squirrel Dog Association

Isn't there someone here in MI. breeding Deckers?

Ed

I just found him on sqdog.com. He goes by the name of Wildwood Deckers.
http://www.geocities.com/wildwood_decker_rat_terriers/

Ed

Mike:

I think folks are trying to get/keep as high of percentages of the Decker blood as possible; as you can see by the 90% female mentioned. I remember that Wildwood Decker site having a lot of information about the development of the breed. I think he travelled around finding the largest rat terriers he could and bred them up but the truth about what else he did is probably lost.


Getrrr Done:

She is a pretty dog. I would not give up on your pup yet. She is only 7 months old! Some dogs start early and some don't. Treeing by seven months might be expecting too much out of a lot of dogs. Does she bark well at caged game on the ground? If so, hoist it up a tree. Probably the best thing for her is to keep her in the timber. Take her hunting as much as possible.

__________________
-SQ_Hunter_Gray

GRAY'S MOUNTAIN FEIST

http://graysmountainfeist.com/

I'm not disputing the fact that Mr. Decker was looking for dogs that could hunt...They were big ones though and he apparently like them!

But, aren't we getting a little off of the Rat Terrier vs. Treeing Feist discussion?

Aren't Decker Terriers considered their own breed by some? If so, then we are talking about a third breed.

The breed standards for Rat Terrier and Treeing Feist offer some insight into the differences too but highlight the similarities as well. As I have heard it said many times, "A Rat Terrier is a Feist, but a Feist is not a Rat Terrier".

With that said, I agree that they are distinct breeds that exhibit considerable genetic variation and cross breeding occurs. I would argue that it is the genetic variability that is great about Rat Terriers and the Treeing Feist. Regional varieties are interesting and important culturally and it allows us to have intelligent, hardy dogs that can suit a wide range of people. Far too many breeds are victims of genetic drift and deleterious mutations. No mention need to be made, you all can think of examples.

__________________
-SQ_Hunter_Gray

GRAY'S MOUNTAIN FEIST

http://graysmountainfeist.com/

I checked out the websites you suggested. Versatility is obviously a shared trait among the Decker Terrier and the Treeing Feist. I would imagine some Rat Terrier lines are the same. I like a dog that can do many jobs and hunting is number one.

__________________
-SQ_Hunter_Gray

GRAY'S MOUNTAIN FEIST

http://graysmountainfeist.com/