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-- Why Are Catahoulas In the Herding Group? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=142398)

Why Are Catahoulas In the Herding Group?

I have wondered about this for years. Why are Catahoula Curs listed in the Herding Group, when all the other Cur breeds are in the Scenthound Group?

While Cathaoulas may be used as a good all around stock dog or cattle dog, they are NOT a herding breed.
A Cathaoula is a hunting dog, both baying and treeing, just like all the other Cur breeds. I don't know of a herding dog breed that can hunt like a cur. Just because the word "Cur" was taken out of the Catahoulas name by the NALC back in 1975, doesn't mean they are not still a Cur and should be registered in the Scenthound Group with the other curs.

I have never seen a Catahoula tree. There are many Leopard curs that tree, which are often confused with the Catahoula. I also do not see many cur fanciers trying to get a Catahoula to tree. While i am sure there are some that do i would think the odds are not real good. Most cur hunters that i know hog hunt with them. I am by no means a expert on them, in fact i have never owned one, but i have never seen anyone nor do i know anyone who uses them as treedogs. I do know some who use them as hog dogs and cow dogs. Unless there is a treeing strain of Catahoulas i would say it might be tough but i am not real sure. Trott.

__________________
Thanks Tommy Trott
Noble, Ok.
405-872-8654
405-830-9125

Hmmm...having being a breeder for the past 11 years, almost every Catahoula I know of will tree. There are some of course that would rather bay on the ground and some lines that are better at treeing then others. But most Catahoulas do tree well.

I know that on these UKC message boards, most people use other curs and feists for treeing, but Catahoulas can tree!
It's really a shame that there are not more Catahoulas at the hunting/treeing events that the UKC holds.

I have a lot of pictures on my website of our Catahoulas treeing -
www.bconnex.net/~langevin

One more.....Catahoulas make a great treeing dog!

are there any catahoulas in central OHOI??

hey mary, i have seen cats tree. i know of some in south arkansas. they are mostly used on hogs there, but when the hogs aren't out they turn em loose on the coons. smart dogs to be able to hunt what they need to at the given times.

Catah.

Mary,
I understand you wanting to defend your prefered breed. Do you have much experience with American Leopard Curs or Kemmers or Original Mountain Curs? I have seen collies and shepards and labs and poodles and all sorts of individuals in many breeds tree game. The intent of clasifying breeds the way they do is nothing more than grouping dogs according to what they were primarily bred to do in the way of work. There have been many catahoulas that have been wonderful hunting dogs and that have treed tons of game. I don't think that the UKC is telling you that your dogs can't hunt.

Dan

__________________
Dan McDonough
507-261-9121 (C)
jagdlep@yahoo.com
Superstition Mtns., AZ
American Leopard Hounds
& Lurchers

tree dogs

Different folks have different definitions of what a tree dog is.

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Dan Edwards

Leopard Curs.... and Catahoulas are 2 very different breeds. They may look very similar in some cases, but they are as different as night and day. Catahoulas are usually used as working cow dogs, or some use them to work hogs. Leopard curs are treeing dogs and are used for all types of tree game. I hear this common mix up all the time. You would be hard pressed to send Randy Oller a Catahoula that would fit in his bear pack..... and you would have a hell of a time sending one of Randy's ALCBA bred Leps to a guy for his working cattle operation. 2 very different dogs, that many don't understand. Take care.

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Mason Workman
702-686-5035

Re: Catah.

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan McDonough
The intent of clasifying breeds the way they do is nothing more than grouping dogs according to what they were primarily bred to do in the way of work.
Dan

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rockcreek
Catahoulas are usually used as working cow dogs, or some use them to work hogs. Leopard curs are treeing dogs and are used for all types of tree game.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rockcreek
You would be hard pressed to send Randy Oller a Catahoula that would fit in his bear pack.....

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Catahoulas are a part of the Cur & Fiest Hunting Program, so why make them show conformation with Herding Breeds. They should be shown with dogs like themselves, other Curs in the Scenthound Group.

Mason, I am sure Randy would just love that LOL

Catahoulas tree just like Labs point, its a taught trait. Even my Chessie trees right along with my Leopard Cur, and I have seen wiener dogs that tree too, should we bring them into the cur/ fiest program also?

Boys I don't believe I would laugh to hard yet. Check with UKC and see what happens if they show up at a cur/feist UKC event?

quote:

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Originally posted by Doogie Dawg

Catahoulas tree just like Labs point, its a taught trait.

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FYI I have they call them American Leopard Curs You dont see Dan McDounough, Randy Oller or John Wick hunting Catahoulas do you, so theres got to be a reason for that. They are in the herding group cause thats what they were orginaly bred for Herding, not hunting. Leopard Curs were bred by the southern Native Americans from the hunting dogs that Desoto brought from Spain when he was exploring the new world to hunt for food. I wish that link to the page that Randy wrote about the differances between Catahoulas and Leopards was still working.

Mary.... Did you get your "Catahoulas" from a Mr. J. Richard McDuffie....? LOL!!!! Rip old buddy!

That one was for you Doogie.

__________________
Mason Workman
702-686-5035

Doogie, To each his own when it comes to opinions. I also want to state thet I have followed leopard curs for near 30 years now. I don't see it changing any time soon either. I also don't believe everything I read or hear. I have seen some pretty interesting hand written documents that if they were open to the public, this post could get r..e..a..l interesting.
I have heard from several reliable sources that the Carter strain of leopards were from hearding dogs. A particular breed was never mentioned. I owned a couple Carter bred dogs and they were coon dogs. My concern with what these leopards truely are is to have like a breeders road map. I also just find the history interesting.
When I was a youngster I tried to study every pedigree and listen to every story I could about these leopards. I thought I had it all figured out. As i have gotten older and a little wiser I have learned most stories are for entertainment and pedigrees, well, what is on the paper is not always what is in the pot so to speak.
Bottom line is..... As the older leopard fanciers who started this breed are leaving this earth so are the true facts. The odds of learning the true origin of the leopards are deminishing with each passing. All we have to go by is what each has in their kennel presently. If it suits you and a few of your close hunting buddies I guess this is all that really matters.

people should expect differing opinoins when they ask Why are Catahoulas in the hearding group not the scenthound group? If anyone has the thing Randy Oller wrote on the subject, the link on the Voy forum homepage. It says the page is no longer aviable. It explains the differances between the two breeds and why they are not the same.

Doogie, Do you think it is "possible" the catahoula and the leopard cur could of shared common ancestory but through selective breeding evolved as seperate breeds? I heard this was done several years ago with foxhounds? Years ago in the running hounds ocassionally one would tree. These were culled. I believe one of them missed being culled. I think it worked out pretty well for the hound breed they started. I have had folks tell me they owned leopard curs that showed herding traits? I was also unable to find the link to Randy's article. I bet if you post on the leopard cur message board Randy may repost the link.

hunting vs. herding

I do not think the Catahoula should be in the herding group either. I believe they are first and foremost a hunting dog that can herd, somewhat. I would definately not classify the many Cats that I have seen work as herding dogs though. They may bunch and catch, but herd, I don't think so. They are a bay dog and some of them are still pretty good at it, but many folks have been breeding them for their color recently and as usual these jag bags have screwed up another breed.

Now, as far as a Catahoula being a tree dog, what a joke. Barking at a bear that another dog trailed and treed for you and you can see it is not a treedog. Treeing on a cage coon in somebody's back yard does not make the dog a treedog. It is pretty sad though that there are folks, in all breeds of dogs, that consider this to be and indication of the dogs locating and treeing ability. I have even had Catahouls folks tell me that of course their dogs were tree dogs, we have said amount of tree champions in our kennel. I don't know how to respond to people like this. I really don't know what to say to them. I just usually choose to stay quiet, unlike me for sure, but I don't like talking to fence posts.

My experiences with the Catahoulas have been pretty good. I have owned about 6 of them and shot only 5 of the 6 and that is a pretty good average for me when it comes to any breed of dog, any breed of dog. The one that made it turned into a real nice yard dog for somebody down in LA. Rebel was smart as a whip and sometimes he would even go hunting, but never and I mean never would he even think about being a treedog. He would bark at a cage coon as hard as any Walker dog I have owned but that was the extent of his treeing. I would also bet if set down on a fairly hot bear track, WOW he would have ate it up. I liked him a whole lot and we were buddies. His littermates were junk, either ill natured idiots or no athletic ability at all. Most of the ones though besides the ones that I have personally owned that I have seen were top notch, jam up "HOG DOGS". To call them a tree dog or a herding dog in my opinion are both equally comical.

Dan Edwards

I need to add this. I believe that the Catahoula deserves as much to be in the scenthound category as much as any cur dog, just dont go throwin around the treedog BS. I cannot believe that the Leopard Cur is under the "curdog" category either though to be quite honest. It is very obvious to me and many others that they are about as far away from a "curdog" as a Walker hound.

__________________
Dan Edwards

Piddlin, I agree for the most part about your comments as basically saying leopard curs are closer to hounds than curs. I believe this is especially true if you use the definition of someone mis informed about curs. Most inexperienced folks think curs are hot nosed, yippie mouthed, still mouthed, little dogs. Leopard curs my breed of choice are quite the opposite.
My next observation will rile you for sure but this is not my intent. I do not consider myself a pup trainer. While I have had limited success I know fellas that get most pups that they put forth the effort to make coon dogs. I believe it is a gift like playing guitar or singing. I have recognized this lack of success in myself and take pups on a limited basis. I find with age, patience and experience success is gettin better. If I had to dispose of 5 out of 6 attempts and thought that was good I hope someone would stop and let me know maybe I need to try another route. I find I have good success with started dogs. I had a fella tell me once he had tried 22 pups of different cur breeds and 21 had failed to tree. I also know 2 dogs out of his 22 that ended up at a new home and made nice coon dogs. Gotta make a fella think?

not riled

quote:

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Originally posted by perry
Piddlin, I agree for the most part about your comments as basically saying leopard curs are closer to hounds than curs. I believe this is especially true if you use the definition of someone mis informed about curs. Most inexperienced folks think curs are hot nosed, yippie mouthed, still mouthed, little dogs. Leopard curs my breed of choice are quite the opposite.
My next observation will rile you for sure but this is not my intent. I do not consider myself a pup trainer. While I have had limited success I know fellas that get most pups that they put forth the effort to make coon dogs. I believe it is a gift like playing guitar or singing. I have recognized this lack of success in myself and take pups on a limited basis. I find with age, patience and experience success is gettin better. If I had to dispose of 5 out of 6 attempts and thought that was good I hope someone would stop and let me know maybe I need to try another route. I find I have good success with started dogs. I had a fella tell me once he had tried 22 pups of different cur breeds and 21 had failed to tree. I also know 2 dogs out of his 22 that ended up at a new home and made nice coon dogs. Gotta make a fella think?

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__________________
Dan Edwards

quote:

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Originally posted by perry
Boys I don't believe I would laugh to hard yet. Check with UKC and see what happens if they show up at a cur/feist UKC event?

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Amanda Tikkanen
Sisu Catahoulas
UberPest's Journal
"Trek" Sisu's Trekker
"Halo" GRCH J Cross' Halo, RATO UKC Total Dog
"Ranger" BVIS CH of TD-CH, UWPV, CAX, UWPCH, GRCH J Cross' Currahee, WPSGRCH 2x UKC Total Dog
"Beau" BIMBS, RBIMBS GRCH Cat's Cradle's Beaufort, CGC, TDI, BPGM 2000-2012
"Lucy" Lucy Anna Skye, MB-CD, CGC--AMBOR; 1992-2007

quote:

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Originally posted by Mary Langevin
Catahoulas are quite capable of hunting bear. Also any type of larger game...moose, bobcat. (Ours do it every year)
They will deer hunt also, although it takes a bit of explaining as to how they handle that, but it is mostly the same way they gather in cattle, they will circle to bring them in.

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__________________
Thanks Tommy Trott
Noble, Ok.
405-872-8654
405-830-9125