UKC Forums - Showing a Spayed/Neutered dog

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-- Showing a Spayed/Neutered dog (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=130819)

Posted by anscox on 01-23-2007 02:03 AM:

Showing a Spayed/Neutered dog

Got a question... why is it legal to show a sterile male? Just thought of this this afternoon. If you are not allowed to show a spayed female, or a neutered male, then why is it legal to show a sterile male? Same thing isn't it?

With all the bad-mouthing people do about chicken breasted dogs, people shaving and painting their animals, and judges not judging according to breed standard, why has no one complained about this yet? Seems to me that being sterile would be a MAJOR defect in a dog... a lot worse then having short ears or white toe-nails.

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Posted by nitechamp bud on 01-23-2007 02:15 AM:

What do you suggest? Ever judge whip out a rubber glove and do a sperm collection and count on every male that is entered right on the spot?

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 01-23-2007 02:21 AM:

that

should draw a big crowd to the show ring!!!LMAO

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Posted by ALLGRANDMAN on 01-23-2007 02:23 AM:

Gonna have to start packing around a microscope every club or bench show judge will have to purchase one to judge a benchshow

Posted by anscox on 01-23-2007 02:30 AM:

Some judges may enjoy that a little to much...

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know there is a problem. Once a male has bred several females and none have pups I would say the problem is kind of obvious wouldn't you?

Something can be done about it... they catch spayed females and they don't always show a scar. It's not up to me to make the rules and carry them out, I'm just wondering why it's ok to show a sterile animal and not one that has been spayed or neutered?

Allowing one and not the others isn't fair. Maybe instead of out-lawing sterile animals they could add a class for altered dogs. I know a lot of kids with nice looking animals that are altered pets, they would enjoy showing and it may actually draw them into hunting or serious competition but they aren't allowed to show their's because they are spayed or neutered.

Posted by mprice on 01-23-2007 02:44 AM:

couple of thoughts

1. Why would anyone want to show a sterile male?? The object of confirmation titles (I've only been doing it for 25+ years) is to say, "having obtained this title, this animal exemplifies the breed and type and should be bred" -- seems silly to even consider showing a dog that you have no intention of breeding?!

2. Confirmation (esp. AKC) has enough jerks as it is!

Marc Price

Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 01-23-2007 02:51 AM:

why would you breed to a stud with out a night
degree to start with

Posted by Robert Welch on 01-23-2007 08:41 AM:

I own a Micro scope

And Rubber Gloves. I check all my males before I start showing them and seriously hunting them in the hunts. Why invest all that money in a Sterile Dog!!!It makes sense to me. A vet or One of the Semen collectors can do it to for a nominal fee might save some heartache later on!

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Posted by Sandi on 01-23-2007 11:44 AM:

There are enough "slick" handlers as it is... there is no way to look at a dog and tell if it is steril or not. The only way this could be possible is if UKC would demand a semen count prior to 6 months and restrict the registration. This would be up to UKC and (pretty costly at that) and not the bench show judge. Trust me we have enough to sort through on the bench already. You do have a good point though.... MY HONEST OPPINION has always been if a dog is spayed or nutered then there is a scar.... and this could lead to a dog having "constructive" surgery to fix a genetic problem and say it was just from spaying etc.

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Posted by Cynthia on 01-23-2007 01:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by blueticking: it
why would you breed to a stud with out a night
degree to start with

why would you breed to a stud WITH a night degree if he is not conformationally correct????

this age old argument will never have an answer to satisfy everyone. breed to what YOU want to breed to and to heck with everyone else!!!

Posted by mprice on 01-23-2007 02:21 PM:

THANK YOU, CYNTHIA!!

"why would you breed to a stud WITH a night degree if he is not conformationally correct????"

I think the "form vs. function" debate is a very healthy one for all of us to continue to have.

I have a picture of what a hound should look like -- not necessarily the same picture you have in your head -- and, as I have found, certainly not the same picture some judges have. I know what I like and if I can't accept it's looks, it doesn't go in the ring with me. I have a 15 year old female whippet on the couch that I spayed when she was 9 months old because I don't care for her shoulder layback and her rear is too straight for me. Please note, I took a group placement with her out of the puppy classes before I spayed her -- the judges really like her.

I admire a coon hating, bawl mouthed, hard running, cold nosed, athletic, killing machine wrapped up in a coonhound package! We also have to be able to look at 'em. I won't want to breed dogs that are coon hunting machines but come out named "butt" and "ugly"!

Marc Price

Posted by Bear on 01-23-2007 02:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by blueticking: it
why would you breed to a stud with out a night
degree to start with

Because there is just as many if not more good"non titled" dogs out there as there is titled.There is non titled dogs out there that will hunt rings around titles.

Posted by scott shaw on 01-23-2007 03:27 PM:

I'm a bench show judge ( and I guess a decent one by the
calls I get to judge shows) and I've also spent alot of nights
in the woods with alot of different dogs. In my opinion and
that of several tapes I've watched on conformation and movement, the straight, "bench legged" show dogs aren't
"conformationally correct", at least for a hunting dog. A
hunting dog needs to have flexible pasterns to cushion
the rest of the leg while running. From what I've witnessed
in the woods most of the dogs that are the hardest running,
longest lasting, wouldn't be considered as "bench dogs".
A couple years ago we took out four dogs that had been sitting
all winter on crusty snow. The bench show quality dog was
the first one done with sore feet. The dog with the flatest
feet wasn't bleeding and still wanted to go when we were
done. I myself don't show a dog unless it's doing it in the
woods first. I can look at a ugly dog on a tree a lot easier
than a pretty dog standing next to me.

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Posted by coon dawg on 01-23-2007 03:27 PM:

...........

quote:
Originally posted by bearhunter
Because there is just as many if not more good"non titled" dogs out there as there is titled.Theres are non titled dogs hunt there that will hunt rings around titles.

...I'm studding a Dual Grand right now..............but Sam is sooooo correct...............I'll also add "and produce just as good pups"..............there are world class dogs tied behind barns that will NEVER see a hunt............

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Posted by redneck_girl on 01-23-2007 03:43 PM:

quote:
The dog with the flatest
feet wasn't bleeding and still wanted to go when we were
done. I myself don't show a dog unless it's doing it in the
woods first.

I myself am also a judge, my question has always been....why would ya want 'cat-like' feet on a hunting hound. Wouldn't that hurt their feet running thru the woods? My hounds hunt 1st and foremost, if they do well on the bench that's great too. Now, these big, blocky, muscular, heavy hounds on small cat-like feet, makes no sence. Like another Bench Judge said to me not long ago, why would you want to put baseball bats on pop bottle caps?

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Posted by Bear on 01-23-2007 04:20 PM:

Re: ...........

quote:
Originally posted by coon dawg
...I'm studding a Dual Grand right now..............but Sam is sooooo correct...............I'll also add "and produce just as good pups"..............there are world class dogs tied behind barns that will NEVER see a hunt............

Yep I forgot to add that

Posted by Bear on 01-23-2007 05:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by scott shaw
I'm a bench show judge ( and I guess a decent one by the
calls I get to judge shows) and I've also spent alot of nights
in the woods with alot of different dogs. In my opinion and
that of several tapes I've watched on conformation and movement, the straight, "bench legged" show dogs aren't
"conformationally correct", at least for a hunting dog. A
hunting dog needs to have flexible pasterns to cushion
the rest of the leg while running. From what I've witnessed
in the woods most of the dogs that are the hardest running,
longest lasting, wouldn't be considered as "bench dogs".
A couple years ago we took out four dogs that had been sitting
all winter on crusty snow. The bench show quality dog was
the first one done with sore feet. The dog with the flatest
feet wasn't bleeding and still wanted to go when we were
done. I myself don't show a dog unless it's doing it in the
woods first. I can look at a ugly dog on a tree a lot easier
than a pretty dog standing next to me.

You said a mouthful there!!! I think the problem started when "cat footed or cat like" was added to the breed standards.
Judges and showrs have taken it to heart and to far.
I think a better way to word it would have been "compact,not splayed(toes spread)"

Posted by ItsOlMander on 01-23-2007 05:58 PM:

Re: Showing a Spayed/Neutered dog

quote:
Originally posted by anscox
Got a question... why is it legal to show a sterile male? Just thought of this this afternoon. If you are not allowed to show a spayed female, or a neutered male, then why is it legal to show a sterile male? Same thing isn't it?

With all the bad-mouthing people do about chicken breasted dogs, people shaving and painting their animals, and judges not judging according to breed standard, why has no one complained about this yet? Seems to me that being sterile would be a MAJOR defect in a dog... a lot worse then having short ears or white toe-nails.

its legal because the male is still intact, a neutered or spayed dog isnt. theres no way to tell by looking at a male wheather hes sterile or not. youre right it is a major defect but dosnt effect his hunting ability, and you cant get any pups off him anyway.

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Posted by Joe S. on 01-23-2007 06:12 PM:

i didnt read through all your guys thread but im assuming prolly because a male being sterile it come naturlly and the other 2 is a procedure that is done by a vet

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Posted by Ryan Smith on 01-23-2007 07:53 PM:

Question?

I know the breed standards say you can't show a male dog with only one testicle. Why not? This is a trait there born with its not done intentionally. They can hunt and reproduce so why not give them the oppurtunity to show for a title also?

Posted by ItsOlMander on 01-23-2007 08:06 PM:

Re: Question?

quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Smith
I know the breed standards say you can't show a male dog with only one testicle. Why not? This is a trait there born with its not done intentionally. They can hunt and reproduce so why not give them the oppurtunity to show for a title also?

because thats a major fault. dogs that only have one testicle desended are prone to cancer, infections, and other health problems. its not somthing you want to use in a breeding program. its a hereditary fault.

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 01-23-2007 09:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by redneck_girl
I myself am also a judge, my question has always been....why would ya want 'cat-like' feet on a hunting hound. Wouldn't that hurt their feet running thru the woods? My hounds hunt 1st and foremost, if they do well on the bench that's great too. Now, these big, blocky, muscular, heavy hounds on small cat-like feet, makes no sence. Like another Bench Judge said to me not long ago, why would you want to put baseball bats on pop bottle caps?

you ever seen a cheeta run on them tight feet.
now a old broke down lion is what most of you
are talking about there just a little slower.
the key is well padded dont it say that in
the walker breed standards.well padded
vs no padding in the snow.

p.s next time he trees make him a pair little
booties for the snow even the eskimos do this.

Posted by RedneckCopeGirl on 01-24-2007 12:17 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cynthia
why would you breed to a stud WITH a night degree if he is not conformationally correct????

this age old argument will never have an answer to satisfy everyone. breed to what YOU want to breed to and to heck with everyone else!!!

because the hunting people don't give a crap about what the dog looks like purple pink or orange they're still going to tree them a coon.Thats all they care about........

Not showing a spayed female or a neutered male probally like some people have said the scarring,not being able to make more pups,and maybe people just don't want to encourage it.

As for cat like feet its not like the dogs walk around all the time like they are on the bench thats probally why you set your dog up.I don't think its going to hurt him and its probally that way b/c when people was maken the rules they thought thats what looked good.

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Posted by anscox on 01-24-2007 02:22 AM:

Just wondering why this seems to be ok and the others aren't...

If I bought a dog and later found out it was spayed I would be more then mad! Got a friend who bought a dog to breed (show dog, not a hound though) and can't get pups from him. Previous owner said he was fine... made me think about the hounds. I know of two that are spayed and neutered, awesome dogs. Much better on the bench and in the woods then 80% of the ones competing now. It's a shame they can't show but a sterile male can. And I am sure there are some spayed females in the ring at times, that's kind of hard to catch also.

I just think that at the larger shows you should be able to file a complaint against a dog that wins if it is believed to be sterile (or spayed if female). If tested and it IS, then he/she shouldn't be allowed to show. If tested and he's fine, then have it written that the person making the accusation is responsible for the bill. It would keep people from making false accusations, and would keep more people honest about there animals.

Of coarse I think all dogs should be DNA tested before registered also and I'm sure I'll hear a lot of crap about that too.... but I KNOW I've seen dogs that there is no way the parents are who they say they are. We've even had a female we bought as a pup tested as an adult (4 times, all the same results) that wasn't from the father. She was supposed to be a peformance pup, did they not think we would test her?!

I want to get what I pay for. Not someone elses trash they think they are slick enough to pass on to me whither it is a non-breeding dog, or a dog with messed up parentage.

Posted by mjflores on 01-24-2007 02:48 AM:

I think they should change the rules so we can compete with spayed/nuetered dogs! To me this is crazy...if a dog has testicle cancer, UKC would rather it die then for it to be fixed and continued in the NT hunts and shows?? There's plenty of GrNtCh's that will never get the opportunity to sire a litter, so whats the big deal exactly??

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