UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- At wit's end (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=114542)

At wit's end

I have a 3 year old male that is one forevermore hardheaded rascal. He has the most grit, git-upNgo, and drive as any dog I have ever raised. In the yard he heel's nicely and sit's on command, after the first turnout he loses his manners totally...He is what most folks call coon-crazy. I can handle him being stupid in this way but he has a problem that I thought would be easy yet has not been easy to correct, I would appreciate any assistance from those of you who have successfully trained hounds in the past.....

He goes hunting nicely, strikes quickly (relative to other dogs), and drives a track to catch (fast track dog is an understatement), when he locates it is loud and impressive and he tree's impressively for a few minutes...then begins to "mill around the tree" By the time I arrive he's more blowing up than treeing? With encouragement he will most of the time show me the tree and with even more encouragement he will begin treeing harder (but not like he started out). He mills alone or in company.
He is a pleasure (not the best word for a hard headed dog?) dog now in that he can tree coons but with his track speed and locate he would be nice in a hunt, until you draw minus for being off the tree.
I have tried the following: Taking him to the tree and tying him to it, tying him where I found him milling and shooting the coon out to the other dogs, and lastly roughing him back to the tree and tying him there...

Any training tips or should I sell him to a hide hunter that is OK with this and move on?

__________________
L. Chris Herring
Pine Cone Redbones
"And let us not be weary in well doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not." Gal. 6:9

Home of:
CH 'PR' Herring's Pine Cone Tally-Ho (TALLY)
and
In Memory of - CH 'PR' Herring's Pine Cone Chance; aka "The Phenomenon"

If you have tried all three, then you have tried two more than I would have tried. I can not stand begging one to tree, but I have found myself spending more time on one than I should have because I like other things about the dog. It seems like you have put forth a honest effort on him, and you have mentioned about everything I have ever heard about in trying to tighten one up on a tree.

Probably should have moved on about a year ago.

__________________
I got him right here!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jason Miller
Late Night Kennels

Have you had his ears checked? We had one that went from being a hard tree dog to doing about what you described. Started out as a consistent stay put hard tree dog. After some time started noticing a change, she would still get treed and start off treeing like normal but after a few minutes the tree barking would taper off, she would mill around some but not leave completely. Turned out she had an ear infection. Barking hard at the tree hurt her head and ears so she stopped barking and treeing so hard. Treated her for the infection and she went right back to her old self.

Re: At wit's end

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chris Herring
I have a 3 year old male that is one forevermore hardheaded rascal. He has the most grit, git-upNgo, and drive as any dog I have ever raised. In the yard he heel's nicely and sit's on command, after the first turnout he loses his manners totally...He is what most folks call coon-crazy. I can handle him being stupid in this way but he has a problem that I thought would be easy yet has not been easy to correct, I would appreciate any assistance from those of you who have successfully trained hounds in the past.....

He goes hunting nicely, strikes quickly (relative to other dogs), and drives a track to catch (fast track dog is an understatement), when he locates it is loud and impressive and he tree's impressively for a few minutes...then begins to "mill around the tree" By the time I arrive he's more blowing up than treeing? With encouragement he will most of the time show me the tree and with even more encouragement he will begin treeing harder (but not like he started out). He mills alone or in company.
He is a pleasure (not the best word for a hard headed dog?) dog now in that he can tree coons but with his track speed and locate he would be nice in a hunt, until you draw minus for being off the tree.
I have tried the following: Taking him to the tree and tying him to it, tying him where I found him milling and shooting the coon out to the other dogs, and lastly roughing him back to the tree and tying him there...

Any training tips or should I sell him to a hide hunter that is OK with this and move on?

---

__________________
Walker Dogs For Life!!!!
Jim Hill
651 775 1783
I Hunt Feeder Buckets But Up Here We Call Them 40 Acre Corn Fields!!
Nitech Flat Creek Mickey
Toppers Dads Little Joule II
Nitech Tree Talken Topper
Pr Dads Little Joule R.I.P 1/1/07
Proud Owner Of A Union Paint Shop Local 61

Judge...

...my dog may be off the tree a few yards when we get in....
Hey, they all say it's a rule playing game!?!
Keep tyring him tied and loved up on tree...may try a treat?
Getting his ears checkes isn't a bad idea either.
JMHO

__________________
Let the dog do the talking.

Chris,



I believe Jason has offered you some excellent advice and I would agree with what he is saying.

If you are looking at competition hunting, there are three things that a dog must absolutely do consistently: go hunting, get treed, and stay treed (hold pressure). If a dog does not do one of these things well, I would consider the dog to have a major flaw and move on. Yes, there are training things you can do to modify the above qualities (as you have tried), but if they do not work, then you are wasting your time.

Just keep being honest with yourself about your dog as you described in your above post and this will take you a looong way in owning a nice houd one day. Good luck and happy hunting.

Heres your fix

A real good friend of mine showed me this training trick a while back and it works.
Forget the crap a couple of guys have told you already. If you have a dog of this age and he will tree a real live raccoon, and not just tree to hear thier head roar, then you have something in todays world. I would rather walk to a tree 2miles deep and see a coon, over 200 feet to look at nothing!
First thing is to get the dog on a lead. Then put him back on the correct tree, and get him treeing again. Then lead him off the tree 5 or 6 steps. point his head AWAY from the tree and switch him. DO NOT beat him. At the same time talk VERY ruff to the dog. The words should hurt worse than the switch. Say something like" WHAT ARE YOU DOING GET YOUR BUTT BACK ON THAT TREE". As soon as you say "TREE" stop everything and walk him back to the tree. Get him to treeing again and make over him like he is the best thing in the world.
Make sure you do everything as I told you to. Things have to happen a certain way for it to click in the dogs head. The dog being pointed away from the tree and getting punished, means he will not relate anything bad happening to him at the tree. Then putting him back on the tree and really makeing over him puts the thought of "OK WHEN IM ON THE TREE DOING THIS IM A GOOD BOY, BUT WHEN IM NOT ON THE TREE AND IM OVER THERE I GET MY BUTT SPANKED". Its not going to stop the milling the first time, but in a couple weeks you will see a BIG change. I PROMISE.

Thanks

Thanks for the responses.

I clean his ears every other week with a vet prerscribed ear cleaner and he had a vet check a few weeks ago when he got his booster shot. No sign of ear issues, however I do know that ear issues can cause a dog to bark less, or lower their volume, so that was good advice.

I have a new pup that is ready to hunt, I'll hunt this male alone til December and try that last piece of advice...If it does not work I know of at least one pleasure hunter who has already offered to buy the dog and I'll do that and "move on" to working the new pup by herself.

I agree that it's not every dog that will tree real live racoons consistently, but this milling includes putting his head to the ground and coming off the tree 20 to 30 yards (not feet) so thats well past the umbrella of the tree. I am often asked to judge and if it was someone else's dog I'd minus it and mine must be held to the same standards that I would apply to others.

Once again thanks to all for your responses.

__________________
L. Chris Herring
Pine Cone Redbones
"And let us not be weary in well doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not." Gal. 6:9

Home of:
CH 'PR' Herring's Pine Cone Tally-Ho (TALLY)
and
In Memory of - CH 'PR' Herring's Pine Cone Chance; aka "The Phenomenon"

I admit that I wait WAYYYY to long to give up on a dog but, sadly...a 3 year old that acts this way and has never treed hard on the wood is probably not going to turn it around now. Sounds like you tried everything worth while. He's probably a nice dog, and you can hide hunt him and have some fun. I doubt he'll ever tighten up enough to comp him in my opinion. If he'll run bear, I'd try him on that and maybe sell him if he makes the grade. In a bear pack, a fast gritty hound that trees back off the tree is worth his own weight in gold.

__________________
Home Of:

NTCH GRCH 'PR' Stylish Dolly
'PR' Bear Brook Midnight Cruiser
'PR' Bear Brook Midnight Dancer

Re: Heres your fix

quote:

---

Originally posted by Worldbeater
A real good friend of mine showed me this training trick a while back and it works.
Forget the crap a couple of guys have told you already. If you have a dog of this age and he will tree a real live raccoon, and not just tree to hear thier head roar, then you have something in todays world. I would rather walk to a tree 2miles deep and see a coon, over 200 feet to look at nothing!
First thing is to get the dog on a lead. Then put him back on the correct tree, and get him treeing again. Then lead him off the tree 5 or 6 steps. point his head AWAY from the tree and switch him. DO NOT beat him. At the same time talk VERY ruff to the dog. The words should hurt worse than the switch. Say something like" WHAT ARE YOU DOING GET YOUR BUTT BACK ON THAT TREE". As soon as you say "TREE" stop everything and walk him back to the tree. Get him to treeing again and make over him like he is the best thing in the world.
Make sure you do everything as I told you to. Things have to happen a certain way for it to click in the dogs head. The dog being pointed away from the tree and getting punished, means he will not relate anything bad happening to him at the tree. Then putting him back on the tree and really makeing over him puts the thought of "OK WHEN IM ON THE TREE DOING THIS IM A GOOD BOY, BUT WHEN IM NOT ON THE TREE AND IM OVER THERE I GET MY BUTT SPANKED". Its not going to stop the milling the first time, but in a couple weeks you will see a BIG change. I PROMISE.

---

__________________
Beaver Creek Kennels
beavercreekkennels@ymail.com
(205) 712-4326

• PKC Ch 'PR' Triple X-Rated
http://www.hunt101.com/img/342861.jpg

• NITECH Beaver Creek Knothead
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/RBoyette/KnotHead-2.jpg

• Death Row Psycho aka "De"
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/RBoyette/Dee11-10-a.jpg

• 'PR' Skuna River Style
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/RBoyette/Stone2.jpg

**R.I.P.**
UKC NITECH - PKC CH
'PR'Beaver Creek Stylish Nellie
http://www.hunt101.com/img/369634.jpg

Re casting

As far as recasting goes. I like to walk my dog at least a 100 yards or so befor I unsnap him again. So normally there is no down side to this type of work at a tree.
I know ALOT of hunters that have had this problem and used this training tip. It works almost everytime, and everytime for me.

One more tip you might try. I have some luck doing this with older dogs who are loose at the tree, some have turned it completely around. If your running with some other dogs who do stay hooked tight, get to him and walk him out about 50 or so yards and tie him off. Leave him tied off in the dark and alone. Go back to the tree and really make a fuss, squall, shoot, bang knock the coon out for the other dogs, whatever it takes to really make it sound good at the tree. Cut the other dogs on down the trail and then go get him and pack him into the other dogs after they have struck again. When they tree do the same thing. This usually takes a few nights or three or four real good tree's. After a few times doing this go to him and let him go to the tree with the other dogs and love him up good at the tree. I learned this from a fellow who has coon hunted for just over 55 years and it does work most of the time. I have had good luck doing it. I have even started doing it with youngsters and have seen a marked improvement on their tree staying ability's after only a couple of times out. Good luck.

__________________
a canine is a canine is a canine.

Chris this is a Fault where a shocking collar can work wanders.Many top trainers use shocking collars to keep dogs from milling at the tree...As soon as he start milling you start off one the low side..The best way to do it is.Hunt small patch woods that you can get to the tree as fast as possible.Having a lighted dog collar on him will also help.Just to see what hes doing.........Most guys will just stand back and watch the dog to see what he does..This takes time like breaking any dogs from bad habits....You also said he blows on tree.. Do you mean face barking???....Thats also a bad habit that needs broke.It will only cause trouble..You can try the shocker on that also.But only work with one poblem at a time.With a shocker.If you dont the dog wont know why hes getting shocked..Most guys are afraid to use a shocker on tree.But it wont hurt the dog at all. If you do it right.((Also your dogs not that old))..LOL..Many dogs his age are not even close to being a finnished dog...I dont know why many guys think all dogs are finnished out at that age..The average age for a dog to be a well broke dog is 4 1/2-5 years old...I know many guys wont agree but thats the truth..The best years hunting wise is 5-10 years old for most dogs...For pleasure or the night hunts..

__________________
Check (Wild River Kennels) or me on Facebook. We have a few pics and video clips of our dogs Co-owner Tyler Stroh :Richmond IN (Treeing Walkers)
Nite Ch Southern Stylish Tide (7 gen all grand)
Nite Ch Deep Creek Stoney
Nite Ch Nite Time Cheat
Nite Ch Goose Creek Little Tina (1 w GN)
Ch Wild Rivers Indiana ShowQueen
Wild Rivers Machine Gun Kelly

(English) Nite Ch Hard Time Spike (Sire Max)
Gr Ch Nite Ch 'pr' Twin CK Lady(Sire Max)
Wild Rivers Main Street Hooker
(Black n Tan)
Nite Ch 'pr' Black River Boy (3 w to Grand)
Ch Wild Rivers Whole Lotta Rosie
Ch Wild Rivers Black Pearl Wild Rivers Black Thundar

Thanks Chet, that is a different approach. If I can get to a tree early enough I might try it. Unfortunately I hunt Game Lands and this usually means quite a walk to the tree.

By blowing I was referring to a longer, bark than a chop in which he turned in the direction of the tree and barked at the tree rather than going back to the tree. So far he's never face barked or offered to bother other dogs at the tree.

I agree that he is not that old...a friend of mine owned a nice Bluetick that he finished to Gr Nt Ch by 2.5 years, he then got a chance to buy that dogs full brother from someone who had the dog and had messed with it early with drags, caged coon, etc. but had never hunted the dog...long story short, within a year this dog was a Nt Ch and was a good coondog til the day he died, his training period was from 2.5 to just over 3 years old....

__________________
L. Chris Herring
Pine Cone Redbones
"And let us not be weary in well doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not." Gal. 6:9

Home of:
CH 'PR' Herring's Pine Cone Tally-Ho (TALLY)
and
In Memory of - CH 'PR' Herring's Pine Cone Chance; aka "The Phenomenon"

Chris, LCK gave you some good advice that works. I've used it on several dogs with great success and I found it usually only takes one time. If this does't work then I'd give up.

__________________
Bill Harper
Washington, NC
252-944-5592