UKC Forums - Scratched or Not?

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-- Scratched or Not? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=114022)

Posted by Chris Roady on 10-02-2006 02:47 AM:

Scratched or Not?

In a cast last night at a local hunt and we had a problem. Dogs were treed across a big creek and 1 handler got to them but got wet doing it so the other 2 handlers went further down the creek and crossed. When the other handlers got to the tree, the first handler had 2 dogs on one lead, one on each end. He told us that the third hound was treed further in and he would pull the other 2 hounds back so we could hear. When he did this the 2 hounds broke out into a fight. What should the ruling be. Just curious.

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Posted by Bear on 10-02-2006 02:49 AM:

Both should be scratched

Posted by lukeduke73 on 10-02-2006 02:53 AM:

scatched any dog showing aggression on chain or off is srcated

Posted by BRYAN J on 10-02-2006 02:53 AM:

I would agree with Sam.

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Posted by BOOBOOBRADY on 10-02-2006 02:58 AM:

scratched.

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Come on people drop you're ego and admitt you just got beat, made a bad call, dog made a mistake, what ever.You can't get cheated that much

Posted by Hiphop on 10-02-2006 03:11 AM:

Why did he leash the other handlers dog ????????

Posted by huntingwalkers9 on 10-02-2006 03:20 AM:

if they were fighting..scratched

if they were growling = not scratched

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Posted by PatrickRobinson on 10-02-2006 03:43 AM:

growling is showing aggression, I would rather have mine just go ahead and fight instead of sounding like a mountain lion all bowed up and growling.

SCRATCH both dogs and the handler for handling dogs...

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Posted by Tightline on 10-02-2006 03:52 AM:

i ant got a rule book, but if another man handled my dog id like him scratched. hehehehe

however we didnt get the whole story ?? maby the judge could see all this take place from his side of the creek ??

and all was ok ??

maby i ought to mind my own business till i figure out the rules of this new game im in love with

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Posted by Tyler Benedict on 10-02-2006 08:52 AM:

In my opinion the man that handled the dogs should be scratched. Also I think if the dogs were on a lead strap they shouldn't be scratched. But, that is the UKC way scratch everybody and eliminate the competition. Heaven forbid the best dog win!!

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Posted by nitehunter99 on 10-02-2006 09:30 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tightline
i ant got a rule book, but if another man handled my dog id like him scratched. hehehehe

same here they aint very many people handle my dogs

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Posted by harper english on 10-02-2006 01:11 PM:

scratch the handler for handling dogs if he didnt have permission to do so scratch any way for handling another mans dog

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Posted by Laura Bell on 10-02-2006 01:15 PM:

Did that handler have permission to go to the dogs and handle them? Why wouldn't the handle have put their leash on as soon as they arrived?

A Dog Fight is a Dog Fight, whether time is in, out, or the hunt is over. If they Fight Scratch them.

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Posted by harper english on 10-02-2006 01:44 PM:

if you knew much about competition then you would know handling a dog without the judge telling you to you are basically saying withdraw me as far as the fighting i like em with a little grit and if someone put my dog on a leash with another dog they better look out for a fight

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Posted by on 10-02-2006 02:54 PM:

To much grit here results in garden fertilizer!!

Scratch 'um all !!!

Posted by Bj1 on 10-02-2006 03:39 PM:

well if he handeled my dog without permission then scratch that guy!!!! fight would have not broke out if he would have left my dog alone!!!! Go in tie his up and leave mine alone!!!! common sense will tell you to tie his dog up back off the tree to avoid conflict. But don't know the whole story so it's just what i would have done....

Posted by Rip on 10-02-2006 03:54 PM:

It doesn't matter how or why they were fighting, once they were fighting they are both scratched.

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Posted by Christy on 10-02-2006 04:15 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tightline
i ant got a rule book, but if another man handled my dog id like him scratched. hehehehe

WOULD YOU STILL LIKE HIM SCRATCHED IF YOUR DOG WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF A 4 LANE HIGHWAY, WITH AN 18 WHEELER BARRELLING DOWN ON IT, OR WOULD THAT BE A DIFFERENT SITUATION?

HANDLED IS HANDLED, NO MATTER WHAT THE CAUSE OR OUTCOME.

I DONT THINK THAT YOU COULD SCRATCH ANYONE FOR HANDLING YOUR DOG.

IT DOES NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THAT ANYWHERE IN THE RULES WHERE I COULD FIND IT.

11. HANDLERS AND JUDGES:

No trees to be climbed or coon to be killed. Where dogs split up Judge will go with handler to the dog that trees first. If a split tree is obvious (Judge’s decision), split tree must be declared. Separate time must be kept on each tree unless all dogs are declared treed. Permission will be given for other handlers to go to their dogs on split tree, otherwise cast must remain together unless time out is called. Split tree cannot be shined until Judge arrives. After five minutes, first dog’s tree may be checked and that dog kept on leash until tree is scored, then he must be turned loose with other dogs that are opening on trail and will receive 25 points credit or discredit as deserved, or next available position. However, if dog(s) are already treed, do not release any dogs. No credit allowed for dog brought to tree. All handlers must stay with Judge at all times unless given permission by Judge to leave. Judge will be first to arrive at tree. WHERE WAS THE JUDGE? IN MY OPINION, IF THIS PERSON THAT HANDLED THE DOGS WAS NOT THE JUDGE, I WOULD HAVE QUESTIONED GETTING SCRATCHED FOR FIGHTING, BECAUSE HAD THAT PERSON NOT HANDLED BOTH DOGS AND PUT THEM BOTH ON THE SAME LEAD, THEY MIGHT NOT HAVE FOUGHT. WAS THEIR ANY AGGRESSION BETWEEN THE TWO UNTIL THIS POINT? HAD THEY FOUGHT ON THE TREE OR ANYWHERE ELSE?

17. GENERAL INFORMATION:

When a dog is declared treed, Judge is not to let anyone go to the tree and start shining in less than five minutes, unless all dogs have been declared treed. This is a courtesy to other handlers and also to see that a dog will hold his tree. If at all possible, be at the tree within five (5) minutes. If handlers are so far from tree that it will take more than five minutes to get to tree, they are to start walking toward tree, but stopping all along to let other handlers see if their dog is treeing. Judge is not to let any handler keep holding him away from tree just to let dog get to tree after five minutes are up. Dog must hold the tree for five minutes, unless all dogs in cast are declared treed. If one dog in cast, or one dog remaining in cast, dog must hold tree for five minutes. Dogs declared treed within hunting time, are eligible for scoring. When hunting time is up, cast can go directly to tree. Dogs at tree must be leashed. IT DOES NOT SAY “MUST BE LEASHED BY THE OWNER/HANDLER, AND IF LEASHED BY ANYONE ELSE THAT HANDLER/SPECTATOR WILL BE SCRATCHED” Judges are not to let hunters call dogs off a trail without counting those points minus. No encouragement or discouragement of any kind to dogs. Dog should not be minused tree points if he comes back a short distance to meet handler if dog goes back in and trees satisfactorily. Judge should be informed of such peculiarities before hunt. No squalling nor any action deemed to be interfering with dog(s) to be done until all dogs declared struck are at tree and leashed. Individual holding first tree controls shining of tree for first two minutes. Two spectators per handler will be allowed on all casts. Spectators may not shine tree. Handler’s dog(s) will be scratched for rule violations by their spectators.

THIS IS JUST MY OPINION, AND MY INTERPRETATION OF THE RULES, BUT I DONT THINK ANYONE COULD BE SCRATCHED JUST FOR HANDLING SOMEON ELSE'S DOG.

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Posted by Rip on 10-02-2006 04:22 PM:

Even if you get the other person scratched for handling somebody elses dog you can't "undo" the fighting.

Fighting under the authority of the judge is a scratch, no matter what, how, or why.

The scratched for fighting would stand just the same as the minus for being off the tree stands when you have an ill dog that gets scratched for agressive behavior. You can't unminus the dog, he was off tree. You scratch the one that ran him off and even though it's a bad break you gotta take your minus for being off the tree.

Same here, even if you do scratch the handler for handling another dog, or not being with the judge, not having permission, whatever, you still uphold the SSF because the dogs were fighting under the authority of the judge.

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Posted by Christy on 10-02-2006 04:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Craig Edwards
The things about the question that puzzle me are:

Rules state dogs are to be leashed..........but not Same leash A LEASH IS A LEASH. WHETHER THERE ARE TWO DOGS ON IT OR ONE. AND IT DOES NOT STATE THAT YOU CANNOT HANDLE SOMEONE ELSE'S DOG. SOMETIMES, PEOPLE DO THINGS FOR COMMON COURTESY.

Rules state split tree is judges decision.....not handler, who decides to pull dogs back.

When dogs are being pulled (jerked ) back they are bumping each other, and they do not always realize that it is coming from the handler, but sometimes they think the other dog is bullying them. It is not a problem usually if dogs are familiar with each other where dominance has already been established. But a strange dog............

I am wondering also if the handler of the two dogs that fought was the owner of the third dog that was split treed. It would have been very fortunate for him if the competetion was scratched. I am sure no one in a night hunt would encourage a fight between other dogs just to win.

TRUE.

DIDNT THINK ABOUT IT LIKE THAT. THAT IS WHY I STATED WHAT I STATED ABOUT THE QUESTION.

SO I GUESS IF YOU GO BY THE RULES, NO MATTER WHAT THE CIRCUMSTANCES, EITHER WAY THEY ARE SCRATCHED FOR FIGHTING, BUT THAT STILL DOSENT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS I HAD.

1. WHERE WAS THE JUDGE?

2. WHO HANDLED THE DOGS? WAS IT A MEMBER OF THE CAST, OR A SPECTATOR?

3. HOW CAN YOU SCRATCH THE HANDLER FOR HANDLING SOMEONE ELSE'S DOG?

IT DOES SAY "DOGS TO BE LEASHED.........BUT IT DOSENT SPECIFY BY HANDLER/OWNER OR ANYTHING IN DETAIL.

LIKE I SAID, IF THE DOG WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF A 4 LANE HIGHWAY AND THIS PERSON JUST SAVED IT'S LIFE, ARE YOU STILL GOING TO SCRATCH THEM FOR "HANDLING ANOTHER PERSON'S DOG"?

Posted by Christy on 10-02-2006 04:56 PM:

YEP...

I'D SAY YOUR RIGHT.

THERE WAS NO MENTION OF ANY GROWLING/FIGHTING BEFORE THE DOGS WERE TIED TOGETHER.

HAD THAT HANDLER, TIED ONE DOG, AND HELD THE OTHER BY THE COLLAR, IT MAY NOT HAVE HAPPEND EITHER.

THERE ARE SOME DOGS OUT THERE THAT ARENT MEAN AT A TREE OR ANYTHING, BUT CANT STAND BEING CHAINED WITH ANOTHER DOG.

AND IN ALL HONESTY AND SINCERITY, VERY FEW HANDLERS GO INTO A NITE HUNT THINKING WELL, I'D BETTER TAKE AN EXTRA LEAD IN CASE I NEED TO TIE SOMEONE'S DOG UP.

Posted by Chris Roady on 10-02-2006 05:04 PM:

Well neither dog was scratched and they were allowed to finish the hunt. I was under the impression that if they fight they are scratched. But the MOH said that there was circumstances that caused the dogs to fight so he did not scratch them. I am just trying to get the rules straight. I wish someone from UKC would respond to give me a definite answer. Thanks for all the comments.

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Posted by Hiphop on 10-02-2006 05:40 PM:

Which hunter was the judge???????

Who's was the third dog???????????

Something doesnt make sense, I think we need to know "the rest of the story".

Posted by cbk on 10-02-2006 05:50 PM:

yes the dogs should be gone for fighting, but and a do mean but, when you put two dogs on same lead and try and hold them things can go wrong , you can have two cats together be all fine tie there tails together and watch what happens then,unless the handler was told be me or the judge don't touch my dog!!!

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Posted by hat creek mac on 10-02-2006 06:01 PM:

this is where common sense comes in---the judge did the right thing in my opinion

chain two dogs together that are treeing and then pull them back which will pull them straight into one another and see how many of them fuzz up at each other---you might get a suprise

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