UKC Forums - All Grand versus Non

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-- All Grand versus Non (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=113836)

Posted by cotton1 on 10-01-2006 12:16 AM:

All Grand versus Non

I know this subject has been beat to death, but I believe the proof is in the pudding, or at least the Super Stake Sire of the Year and Super Stake Breeder of the Year.

20% of Fall 2004 pups are from All Grand Sires
10% of Fall 2004 Breeders are from All Grand Sires

30% of Spring 2004 pups are All Grand Sires
20% of Spring Breeders are from All Grand Sires

30% of Fall 2005 pups are from All Grand Sires
30% of Fall 2005 Breeders are from All Grand Sires

20% of Spring 2005 pups are from All Grand Sires
10% of Spring 2005 Breeders are from All Grand Sires

22% of all pups and breeders are from All Grand Sires. This is amazing considering the number of pups available out there.

PLUS, this figure could go up, but I do not know what many of the breeders breed to to acheive their rank in the list.

Crunch it anyway you wish, but your odds go up when you stick to proven hounds and pedigrees.

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Posted by Buckshot on 10-01-2006 12:32 AM:

Lets look at your numbers this way:

80% of Fall 2004 pups are NOT from All Grand Sires
90% of Fall 2004 Breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires

70% of Spring 2004 pups are NOT All Grand Sires
80% of Spring Breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires

70% of Fall 2005 pups are NOT from All Grand Sires
70% of Fall 2005 Breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires

80% of Spring 2005 pups are NOT from All Grand Sires
90% of Spring 2005 Breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires

78% of all pups and breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires.

Just shows me that coon dogs tree coons. Not Papers!!

Posted by cotton1 on 10-01-2006 12:47 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Buckshot
Lets look at your numbers this way:

80% of Fall 2004 pups are NOT from All Grand Sires
90% of Fall 2004 Breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires

70% of Spring 2004 pups are NOT All Grand Sires
80% of Spring Breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires

70% of Fall 2005 pups are NOT from All Grand Sires
70% of Fall 2005 Breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires

80% of Spring 2005 pups are NOT from All Grand Sires
90% of Spring 2005 Breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires

78% of all pups and breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires.

Just shows me that coon dogs tree coons. Not Papers!!

You are right, and you are also the winner in the show your intelligence contest.

The point is this.

Out of all those dogs and all those breeders ALMOST 25% or 1/4 come from ALL GRAND.

If 25 % of your pups become winners, would you not be happy?

I think you would.

Plus it takes a lot smaller percentage to be placed on the UKC performace list. There are hounds with only 8 and 9% titled offspring.

Even though the number is small, it is still significant.

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Posted by synoviaus on 10-01-2006 12:48 AM:

I agree with Buckshot percentages look different on the flip side. Its been said before and I'll say it again papers never did tree coons. Find a real coonhound that hunts the way you like and reproduces pups like you like and put that in your breeding program. Coonhound x Coonhound usually = Coonhounds. This formula creates coonhounds no matter how many grands in a pedigree. Amy

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Posted by cotton1 on 10-01-2006 12:56 AM:

[quote="Drew Werndli"]Lets look at your numbers this way:

80% of Fall 2004 pups are NOT from All Grand Sires
90% of Fall 2004 Breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires

70% of Spring 2004 pups are NOT All Grand Sires
80% of Spring Breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires

70% of Fall 2005 pups are NOT from All Grand Sires
70% of Fall 2005 Breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires

80% of Spring 2005 pups are NOT from All Grand Sires
90% of Spring 2005 Breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires

78% of all pups and breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires.

Just shows me that coon dogs tree coons. Not Papers!![/quote]

You numbers show how alot of them can not be placed in the top.

Out of the 8 division
4 sire of the years are All Grand
4 Breeders of the year litters were sire by ALL Grand

for a
100% total

You would not thank it would be 100% total with only 22% of the eligible hounds in the divisions being All Grand.

Where are your other 80% that tree coons and not papers?

Just shows me that coon dogs tree coons. Not Papers!! That is your quote, RIGHT!

By the way our of the 3 sire of the year races, the second place hound is All Grand also.

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 10-01-2006 01:14 AM:

and probably

80% of the studs advertised are all grand so i would say they better have a few in the winners circle!!!because there the ones every tom,dick and harry is breeding to!!!!

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Posted by Buckshot on 10-01-2006 01:16 AM:

I quoted your #'s and flipped it to show a more realistic look at how the all grand litters stack against non- grand.

quote:
If 25 % of your pups become winners, would you not be happy?

Yep, I would. But your #'s show me that I have a better chance with a non-grand pedigree pup over one that is from an all grand.

Until you can show me a set of papers that can tree a coon in the woods, I'll keep my belief that you breed coondog to coondog not paper to paper and that a coondog tree's coons not the paper.

Just a couple side question. How many all grand dogs was on the final cast of the 2006 UKC World Hunt?

Did one of them win?

Or did a single registered hound win it?

How many all grand dogs are in the AKC final tonight?

When was the last time an all grand dog won a world hunt?

Overall, who has won consistently in the hunts - non-grand papered hounds or all grand papered hounds?

Posted by StraightDrive on 10-01-2006 01:23 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Buckshot
Lets look at your numbers this way:

Just shows me that coon dogs tree coons. Not Papers!!

******NUFF SAID RIGHT THERE******

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Posted by PatrickRobinson on 10-01-2006 01:23 AM:

Sam I believe you could just say Rat Attack has dominated the numbers, I wonder what the percents would be if you took him out of the all grand figures????

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Posted by Jason Mullins on 10-01-2006 01:28 AM:

i have always been and will believe dogs tree coon not papers

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Posted by Phil Peterson on 10-01-2006 02:40 AM:

When was the last time an all grand dog won a world hunt?

I thought Jane was an all Grand but maybe not. I think that a lot of people that don't like all grand don't have all grand. If you take two pups that are equal in ability and one is all grand, guess which one is worth more money? I will hunt any kind of a dog, but if a dog is a true coon dog, the all grand is sure a plus to me. JMO

Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 10-01-2006 03:11 AM:

What the heck did people do before all grand? I am suprised anyone ever won anything without that pedigree behind them.

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Posted by James HILL on 10-01-2006 03:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Buckshot
Lets look at your numbers this way:

80% of Fall 2004 pups are NOT from All Grand Sires
90% of Fall 2004 Breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires

70% of Spring 2004 pups are NOT All Grand Sires
80% of Spring Breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires

70% of Fall 2005 pups are NOT from All Grand Sires
70% of Fall 2005 Breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires

80% of Spring 2005 pups are NOT from All Grand Sires
90% of Spring 2005 Breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires

78% of all pups and breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires.

Just shows me that coon dogs tree coons. Not Papers!!

same here

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Posted by on 10-01-2006 04:12 AM:

It is darn sure alot easier to promote a breeding program by pushing the titles than it is by winning the big hunts. Get a copy of Bloodlines mag and it won't take you long to figure out where to take your NtCh and put a win towards Grand by winning a 2 dog NtCh hunt. There are handlers all over the country that make a career and prolly a living putting titles on mediocre coonhounds. Those that hunt hard, get around to hunts and draw the tough dogs know what is producing the dogs that win. Serious pleasure hunters are out there hunting with a wide variety of hounds and know what is producing the type of hound they want on a consistant basis. Then you have the halfassed wannabe's that don't hunt enough to know what a coondog is and they buy the advertiseing. And there will always be enough of them to keep the AllGrands in demand and selling for top dollar. I got no problem with that. Buy what you want, it's your money. And if you don't spend it, the govrnment will find a way to get out from under you anyway.

Posted by Fox Valley on 10-01-2006 05:17 AM:

I agree

with what buckshot is saying, been that way for 100 years & is still working just fine now. The Jane dog is all Grand thou, Im not sure she was when she won the world, I think someone just finished out a dog in her 3 gen this year. But I read were Jane's people said she was a 4 gen all grand on the Quick thread. Jane's papers didn't tree those coon either, she is the same dog as a non all grand as she is with the ped,

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Posted by Russell Boyette on 10-01-2006 08:44 AM:

Re: and probably

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Dogs
80% of the studs advertised are all grand so i would say they better have a few in the winners circle!!!because there the ones every tom,dick and harry is breeding to!!!!

You know dang well that 80% are NOT all-grand! I was just looking through the bloodlines and there are 21 all-grand studs out of over 70 advertised. It comes to around 26% instead of 80%. You know, most of the people i see running down an all-grand dog are the stud owners whose stud doesnt have an All-grand pedigree, or someonw that hunts another breed. I dont care what the pedigree is either, if the dog is already treeing coons, but you fellas want to make some misleading statements i think.

I will say this, i doubt 80% of the people running down all-grands on this board have hunted with an all-grand hound, much less actually owned one.

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Posted by treekatie on 10-01-2006 09:29 AM:

I've got three all-grand dogs. One is a Rat bitch, one is a Big Kahuna bitch and the other is a Big Kahuna male. One of them just turned two years old, the other two are younger than that.

They have already treed me as many coons as I have treed in the past 10 years when I have not had all-grand dogs. They are not perfect, but they hunt hard, they are not junky, not slick-treeing idiots, and generally just suit me. They would suit a lot of people.

They would suit me just as well if they were not all-grand. But it just hasn't worked out that way for me. I have seen some fine hounds that were not all-grand. But dollar for dollar, in my experience, it has been a much better deal.

What would you pay for a 16 or 17 month old all-grand Night Champion male with his hundred dollars won and two Super Stakes left to hunt? If you can find one for sale, I can promise you it will hurt your pocket book. I've got one well on the way. Gave $500 for him. Wish all my investments had that kind of return...

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 10-01-2006 02:27 PM:

russell

keep doing your research and %, i have owned and i have hunted a couple all grand. i wasted 2yrs. trying to get them to tree coon. i do have my own stud and he is not all grand. but most of his pups can be hunted by themselves before they are a year old. i am by no means jealous, i could give a rats a$$ if nobody breeds to my dog. i'm glad you are having such good luck. i can only go with my expeirence. sorry for the mis information i dont read a magazine with a calculator in my hand. but i'll still say the all grand are being bred to more than the others.and i would be willing to say the age of the culls will be a little older because it would be very hard to tell your wife you just shot that 1500.00 dollar pup.

Posted by cotton1 on 10-01-2006 02:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Buckshot

Just a couple side question. How many all grand dogs was on the final cast of the 2006 UKC World Hunt? The final cast match my numbers. Jane made up 25% of the cast.

Insane Jane is out of an all grand male

Did one of them win? YEP
Insane Jane is out of an all grand male and is a world champion

Or did a single registered hound win it?

How many all grand dogs are in the AKC final tonight?

When was the last time an all grand dog won a world hunt?

Overall, who has won consistently in the hunts - non-grand papered hounds or all grand papered hounds? [/B]

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Posted by cotton1 on 10-01-2006 02:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by treekatie
I've got three all-grand dogs. One is a Rat bitch, one is a Big Kahuna bitch and the other is a Big Kahuna male. One of them just turned two years old, the other two are younger than that.

They have already treed me as many coons as I have treed in the past 10 years when I have not had all-grand dogs. They are not perfect, but they hunt hard, they are not junky, not slick-treeing idiots, and generally just suit me. They would suit a lot of people.

They would suit me just as well if they were not all-grand. But it just hasn't worked out that way for me. I have seen some fine hounds that were not all-grand. But dollar for dollar, in my experience, it has been a much better deal.

What would you pay for a 16 or 17 month old all-grand Night Champion male with his hundred dollars won and two Super Stakes left to hunt? If you can find one for sale, I can promise you it will hurt your pocket book. I've got one well on the way. Gave $500 for him. Wish all my investments had that kind of return...

GREAT STATEMENT

And you are correct with your investment. Invest your money with a chance to get a return.

People are making the statement, to breed coon dogs to coon dogs and you will get coon dogs.

What a self made statement!!

That is such crap.

People keep doing that because they are jealous of what others have and will not take the time and effort to improve.

Yeah they dog trees one coon a week and they have a COON DOG!

It is easy to be the winner at your own house.

Even an english has won the SS stakes championship, and guess what, he was all grand.

Percentages are proving it. If 25% of the hounds that are in the winners circle come from all grand,

Why can the other 75% with the larger numbers competeing not keep up?

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Posted by John Malone on 10-01-2006 02:47 PM:

X Jr was also All Grand.He won the World Ch.

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Posted by Buckshot on 10-01-2006 03:30 PM:

quote:
People keep doing that because they are jealous of what others have and will not take the time and effort to improve.

Jealous of a dog that is all grand? LOL, what a joke. Papers are papers and don't prove a thing.

Just spent $700 on an all PR bred pup 2 months ago. NO Hunt Titles in the dog's 7 generation pedigree. 2nd pup I bought this year that was all PR bred with no hunt titles in the pedigree. I certainly have the money to buy an all grand pup -- but I am smart enough to know that papers don't tree the coon. Coon Dogs tree a coon.

I own and have owned grade hounds too. Cause when I go coon hunting, I take dogs to the woods, not papers.

Why make it about jealously? People that are improving the breed are breeding coon dogs to coon dogs. Not papers to papers.

I am also smart enough to know that if all grands are only winning 25% of the time, I'd rather take my chances on non-grands that are winning 75% of the time.

quote:
Percentages are proving it. If 25% of the hounds that are in the winners circle come from all grand,

Why can the other 75% with the larger numbers competeing not keep up?

UMM, maybe you need to re-think your last sentence. Seems to me if 75% of hounds in the winner circle are not from all-grand, and 75% that win are non-grand, explain how they are not keeping up.

Like I posted in a few post back, I asked to name these All Grand World Champions. Now name those World Champions that are not all-grand and explain how non- grand hounds are not keeping up. More non-grand hounds are winning the big ones.

I think you may find (according to the #'s posted) that 75% of the time non-grand dogs are in the winner circle.

Posted by cotton1 on 10-01-2006 04:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Buckshot

I am also smart enough to know that if all grands are only winning 25% of the time, I'd rather take my chances on non-grands that are winning 75% of the time.

You are not as smart as you think. Let me break it down.

OK

Their are a smaller number of All Grand pups being produced than non all grand pups.

Yet, that smaller number of pups are beating all the others.

Think about it.

It is like this

WD Ch X Jr
WD Insane Jane
Futurity Jet
National Mable
SS Champion Briar Creek Zeb
SS Champion Hammer

These dogs rose to the top, and yet the number of All Grands produced is very small compare to the other number of hounds you are talking about.

Percentages are Good

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Posted by chris simmons on 10-01-2006 04:07 PM:

It is pretty cut -n- dry,

If you want a All Grand, get one

If not, don't buy one.

Papers do not mean anything as a coondog.

Some people prefer to take a chance on a all grand, so if it turns out, the price will be high for selling.Or thay are looking for their next big stud or reproducing female.

I myself like the All Grand dogs. But if a pup comes along that is not all grand that will tree coons, I like that to.

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Posted by Buckshot on 10-01-2006 04:17 PM:

quote:
WD Ch X Jr
WD Insane Jane
Futurity Jet
National Mable
SS Champion Briar Creek Zeb
SS Champion Hammer

Not to rain on your parade but you just named 6 hounds.

UKC, PKC, ACHA, and AKC (for the last 2 years in the current format) World Hunt Winners - Currently 4 yearly World Hunt winners. Minus AKC 2 years ago and you had 3 World Hunt Winners each year.

Who you reckon has been winning the World Titles? All Grands or Non-Grands? Not to mention all the big hunts.

My list of World Hunt Winners and Big Hunt winners that are non-grand is way too long to list.

It would be easier to name the all grand pedigree hounds than name all the non-grand due to the shorter list with all-grands.

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