UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- Let's Discuss Performance Program (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928506868)

quote:

---

Originally posted by yadkintar
The report by the better business burrow I just looked at says 50 employees total revenue just under $7,000,000 annually they ain't slumming it up there it's time for change.



Tar

---

__________________
Michael Rosamond
Sunspot Lights
936-827-6309
http://www.sunspotlights.com/
When brightness matters!!

Home Of:
PKC Ch, Grch Grnch 2008 Tx state champion They call me Crazy Betty

PKC SCh CH Grnch They call me Howler too

Our labor is free we do it because we want to. Everything they do they get a good paycheck for. I worked in the hot sun 200 ft in the air for years I got payed good for it. But I came in on weekends and set in a moh for free because the club couldn't afford to pay.


It's time for change.


Tar

So what would you like to see happen tar? No hints, no "trying to get us to think". What exactly would you do?

__________________
Michael Rosamond
Sunspot Lights
936-827-6309
http://www.sunspotlights.com/
When brightness matters!!

Home Of:
PKC Ch, Grch Grnch 2008 Tx state champion They call me Crazy Betty

PKC SCh CH Grnch They call me Howler too

Go back and read my last six years of comments were y'all told me it wouldn't work and banned me twice when it got to hot when people agreed with me.



Go old school back to the basics and you can't say it don't work if you don't try but you can't be worrying about your bottom line when making those decisions if it don't work there is a such thing as a tax write off.



Tar

I cant go back and read your comments and I have no idea why you were banned. What old school are you talking about? Specifics.

__________________
Michael Rosamond
Sunspot Lights
936-827-6309
http://www.sunspotlights.com/
When brightness matters!!

Home Of:
PKC Ch, Grch Grnch 2008 Tx state champion They call me Crazy Betty

PKC SCh CH Grnch They call me Howler too

Go back to the old format cast winners place first finish out through tenth place with plus point non cast winners. No leash lock and tree count down. Only three minutes the first drop to babble. Far as cheap titles you got people spending $6,500 entry not to even get a title maybe in states like Oklahoma and Texas that want those hunts 16 dog limit heck ukc should give it to them get people excited something to watch bring new life in low attedence states something ain't selling at Walmart they get rid of it over night and get something that will. I ain't got all the answers but I ain't afraid to try something different send a rep out to talk to people this board is just a small amount of people there's people never read it. Decisions have to be made quickly before you loose customer base that's what's wrong now people are tired of the wait.



Tar

How much money is put into the performance program in a year?

__________________
Kenny's Allnite Black and Tans
Moncks Corner, SC
843-697-5889
ChNtCh Allnite Gypsy Girl

quote:

---

Originally posted by joey
Tar a very small percentage of that comes from us. Lets not act like we are making the 7 million a year.

---

__________________
Shane

Whole purpose here is attempting to get higher point values.
At one time dogs could be permanent nominated up to 2 years. reinstate that and more. My suggestion …


Old rule...…………………...Change to …………...Fee
0- 6mon...……………………..Unchng...………... $30
over 6m..up to 12 mon ...Unchng………...…$100
Over 1year not Elig……...Elig up to 2yr…….$ 200
…………………………………….. Over 2yr...…………. $300

Allow females bred to sires that are not performanced To pay a fee to nominated their litter if they wish to performance the litter. Say 100 or 150.(This fee is in additional to the usual litter nomination) No pup earnings would go to the sire of those litters nominated this way. The female would require DNA and would still only collect pup winnings under the current system. The earnings the sire owner would have received would not be paid and revert into the current performance fund.

My reasoning.
Many litter nominated pups are never permanently nominated. Later sold and now ineligible to be permanently nominated.
Some guys would rather pay the penalty to late permanent nominate then pay up front on a gamble.

Some guys would like to breed their back yard male and female they own without performancing the sire.This would give that backyard breeder the opportunity to raise a litter and still performance the litter if they so wish.


The performance sire would still be desired by breeders .As the sire owner would still wish to earn possible pup winnings and enticing eligible females with the prepaid sire.

__________________
IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book
Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
Gone too soon RIP my baby girl
Gr.Ch. Black Dog Black Cherry
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
One of kind and would make a believer out of you when you thought there were no coon left
Home of:
2009,2013,2018 Pa. State
Show Handler Of The Year
CH. Power Pack Pepper
2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
2011&2013 WTDA Pa State Champion
2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
Ch. Jay's Greenridge Heidi
In memory of my best friend "Jay"

Re: Let's Discuss Performance Program

quote:

---

Originally posted by Allen / UKC
UKC is working on several significant changes relates to nite hunt structure, as well as the Performance Program. At this time details are still being finalized so we are not at liberty to discuss any changes at this time yet.

However, we would like your feedback and thoughts on a specific item related to the Performance Program. Current rules make a permanently nominated dog eligible for its whole life. This is a good deal for the owner but it does also take away from the fund obviously and might help increase point values otherwise.

Should UKC consider putting an age limit on those permanently nominated dogs, and if so, what should that age be? Leave as is? What are your thoughts?

---

__________________
Shane

Pat bizich
Great post

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pat Bizich
Whole purpose here is attempting to get higher point values.
At one time dogs could be permanent nominated up to 2 years. reinstate that and more. My suggestion …


Old rule...…………………...Change to …………...Fee
0- 6mon...……………………..Unchng...………... $30
over 6m..up to 12 mon ...Unchng………...…$100
Over 1year not Elig……...Elig up to 2yr…….$ 200
…………………………………….. Over 2yr...…………. $300

Allow females bred to sires that are not performanced To pay a fee to nominated their litter if they wish to performance the litter. Say 100 or 150.(This fee is in additional to the usual litter nomination) No pup earnings would go to the sire of those litters nominated this way. The female would require DNA and would still only collect pup winnings under the current system. The earnings the sire owner would have received would not be paid and revert into the current performance fund.

My reasoning.
Many litter nominated pups are never permanently nominated. Later sold and now ineligible to be permanently nominated.
Some guys would rather pay the penalty to late permanent nominate then pay up front on a gamble.

Some guys would like to breed their back yard male and female they own without performancing the sire.This would give that backyard breeder the opportunity to raise a litter and still performance the litter if they so wish.


The performance sire would still be desired by breeders .As the sire owner would still wish to earn possible pup winnings and enticing eligible females with the prepaid sire. [/QUOTE

I agree with nominating a litter not bred to a performance sire for a fee . I wouldn't want to see an age limit with all the other kc requirements a lot of dogs aren't getting ukc hunted until older . In my situation and area most industry are 24 hour 7 day / 365 and most jobs require rotation which usually results in 2 weekends per month off . Most of us need weekday hunts . If your in the farm industry in the Midwest maybe you can have weekend off and that may be why the numbers may be better in the north ? in my area a UKC title isn't easily earned . We have quality dogs little ground but in my case im not always going to sacrifice a precious weekend away from family if the system changes to make it harder to title a dog then watch the southern numbers get even lower .Its nice having options!

__________________
Mike Knuckols
Cold Traxx Kennels .com
"The Big Yummer "

Home of :
CH NITECH Whitemans Poison
GRCH NITECH Cold Traxx Extra Man
CH GRNITECH Kings Hardwood Ranger
UKC CH PKC CH CHKC CH Cold Traxx Man Child
GRNTCH PKC CH Hunt it off Bella
Cold Traxx Southern Honey
Cold Traxx Mattie
Cold Traxx Super Freak



Gone but never forgotten :
NITECH McFarlands Joe
Knuckols Hooker
NITECH Cypress River Chance
NITECH Cypress River Honey
NITECH Cypress River Princess
NITECH Newcombs Miss Molly
NITECH Wilsons Hardwood Ann
GRCH GRNTCH Paulding Forrest Bubba

Farm Industry with weekend off? I can assure you that doesn't draw any hunts, you would have lower numbers.

__________________
Jacob Miller

A "Futurity" only works if you have "Futurity sires". Letting people pay up pups that aren't from paid up Futurity sires kills the program. That just won't work so y'all can forget that.
Letting people pay up pups after they are a year old won't work either. No one will pay up their pup until they see if it is going to make something. All of the money in the program comes from the pups that don't make it.
A Futurity Program is just gambling. You are betting that your sire is going to produce pups that make it. And you are gambling that the pup you buy is going to make it. And with any gamble more people have to lose money than win. The more people that lose, the more money the few winners make. The "odds" are against you. The lure of gambling is the excitement and the dream of hitting it big.
If you want the payout to increase then you will have to either increase the pay in or decrease the number of winners. It is simple math.
And of course, the house always takes their 10% off of the top. That is just a fact of life.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Lambert
A "Futurity" only works if you have "Futurity sires". Letting people pay up pups that aren't from paid up Futurity sires kills the program. That just won't work so y'all can forget that.
Letting people pay up pups after they are a year old won't work either. No one will pay up their pup until they see if it is going to make something. All of the money in the program comes from the pups that don't make it.
A Futurity Program is just gambling. You are betting that your sire is going to produce pups that make it. And you are gambling that the pup you buy is going to make it. And with any gamble more people have to lose money than win. The more people that lose, the more money the few winners make. The "odds" are against you. The lure of gambling is the excitement and the dream of hitting it big.
If you want the payout to increase then you will have to either increase the pay in or decrease the number of winners. It is simple math.
And of course, the house always takes their 10% off of the top. That is just a fact of life.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Lambert
A "Futurity" only works if you have "Futurity sires". Letting people pay up pups that aren't from paid up Futurity sires kills the program. That just won't work so y'all can forget that.
Letting people pay up pups after they are a year old won't work either. No one will pay up their pup until they see if it is going to make something. All of the money in the program comes from the pups that don't make it.
A Futurity Program is just gambling. You are betting that your sire is going to produce pups that make it. And you are gambling that the pup you buy is going to make it. And with any gamble more people have to lose money than win. The more people that lose, the more money the few winners make. The "odds" are against you. The lure of gambling is the excitement and the dream of hitting it big.
If you want the payout to increase then you will have to either increase the pay in or decrease the number of winners. It is simple math.
And of course, the house always takes their 10% off of the top. That is just a fact of life.

---

Drop the program. Payout night of the hunt like others do,instead of always trying to fix something, and making interest off the hunters money.

__________________
Jacob Miller

Its not a futurity because your eligable for the life of the dog. I believe paying up 12-18 month old pups at $200 will add thousands to the pot, but 18mo. should be the cutoff. Allowing a Sire to breed 1 gyp a year at $200 will add thousands to the pot also. Any increase should be on the Performance Sire end, I dont think they've had one since the start of the program..

__________________
Shane

I think the simplest fix is to increase the entry fee 5 dollars across the board. 5 dollars won't stop anyone from going to a hunt.

Also allow any dog to be paid up in the program so long it was bred by a performance sire. Fee based on how old the hound is.

__________________
Grand Nite Ch PKC CH(3) Main Street Blueberry Jam(Autumn Oaks Final 4 Grand Nite Ch 2015) UKC world finalist 2017 Ohio State Ch 2018
Grand Nite Ch(4) PKC Silver CH Main Street Blue SS quarterfinalist 2018. Autumn Oaks Grand 16 2018. Senior Showdown semifinalists 2020. UKC top 25 World hunt 2020. PKC quarterfinalist 2020
Grand Nite Ch HOF PKC Silver Ch Heatseaker Unleash the Kraken(Grand at 15 months old) BBOA Overall 1st place X2, Tournament of Champions Finalist, National Bluetic Days overall winner, Autumn Oaks Grand 16x2 PKC SS Semi Finalist PKC State Hunt Final 4 UKC World Top 20
GRNT CH BLUES AMAZING GRACE
Trevor Hack
567-231-7413

Allowing people to pay up 12 to 18 month old pups will add thousands but also take away thousands. For every change that adds money on one end, you have to also ask yourself how much money will it take away on the other end. It is all a matter of speculation, theory and what ifs. You have to think everything through and do the math. It might work and it might not. But it would have to be so high that it would penalize the people That waited and make them want to pay them up before 6 mos. Maybe $200 from 6-12 mos and $500 after 12 mos. That is maybe why change is so slow.

quote:

---

Originally posted by nitehunter2004
Strange but I agree, PKC did the same thing to SS sires an after 2 years they was calling people asking for donations cause they didn’t have enough money to pay SS winners.

Mr Tim.

---

__________________
Shane

quote:

---

Originally posted by shane_atchison
Its not a futurity because your eligable for the life of the dog. I believe paying up 12-18 month old pups at $200 will add thousands to the pot, but 18mo. should be the cutoff. Allowing a Sire to breed 1 gyp a year at $200 will add thousands to the pot also. Any increase should be on the Performance Sire end, I dont think they've had one since the start of the program..

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by shane_atchison
A lil different math here. It cost $100 to pay up a Ukc sire a year vs. $700 to SS one a year. It would be worth losing 100 performance sires at $100 to Register 100 litters at $200. Should also be mandatory to pay up the litter of single breeding performance pups..

---

Richard is right. The SS works because they only pay a handfull of winners from a pot thats being paid into by almost all of their registered pups. If all SS pups won part of that pot back for every cast win they got. The program would be broke. So how could this be any different.

__________________
Michael Rosamond
Sunspot Lights
936-827-6309
http://www.sunspotlights.com/
When brightness matters!!

Home Of:
PKC Ch, Grch Grnch 2008 Tx state champion They call me Crazy Betty

PKC SCh CH Grnch They call me Howler too

400 to pay up s.s. for how long? 6 mo right? Just pay cast winners at end of night and drop the program.

__________________
Jacob Miller