UKC Forums - "Its genetic! You can't Fix it!"

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Posted by Fisher13 on 08-17-2014 04:05 PM:

"Its genetic! You can't Fix it!"

As I sit here relaxing and enjoying the steaming hot cup of coffee on this raining Sunday morning. Somehow a cup of coffee and rainy mornings seem to be so very fitting of each other. I can't help but use this break from the hectic schedules that so often becomes burdensome, to take some time to reflect. I thought I would take some time to reflect on why I coon hunt.

I so often hear in this world of coon hunting, a statement that I believe sells many of our abilities, and intelligence as houndsmen,hunters, trainers and our beautiful coon hound breeds short. The statement that is often used describing a dog that may have been a prized hound if not for a glaring fault, that a hunter was unable to break. This statement or mindset is as the title of this post states " Its genetics! It can't be fixed." I've heard this statement in many different forms when 2 hunters discuss a problem hound and how to resolve the problem at hand.

It seems that many hunters that I know have sold or culled a dog for issues that with today's understanding of dogs can be broke or fixed if the time and energy is put into the dog.
Keep in mind I am talking about hunting and training, not breeding. I believe very firmly that a breeder needs to and should be extremely picky about what they have chosen to breed. That being said, I believe there are a certain large percentage of pups that are culled,sold,given up on for a glaring fault. Under the predisposition that " Its genetic and it can't be fixed"
I recently remember reading about a dog, that has won a number of major events, and in the interview the handler described how he acquired the hound. She was sold to him because she refused to hunt by herself. A fault many hunters would cull for. While reading this article it dawned on me how important this hound was to the owner, and reading between the lines a little, you could tell there was a wonderful bond between the handler and hound. I thought to myself what a great Cinderella story for the hound and handler. The hound once somebodies cull is now winning national events. As I was reading this article it became quite clear the bond between handler and the hound was quite unique and strong, and I thought to myself well isn't this what coon hunting is all about. The bond between hunter and hound. I wish I could remember the name of the hound and hunter, but unfortunately I do not. None the less I would venture to guess this bond wasn't formed because the hound was the perfect hound, or the perfect dog, but because the hound had a handler/trainer that understood her, and knew how to mold,shape, and bring out the best in her. Even though this process was long, and I'm sure filled with highs and lows, and many nights of frustration when progress was not as quickly as obtained as the handler might have preferred. However even on these nights the handler had the foresight and wisdom to keep his eye on the end results, instead of the immediate disappointments in front of them. This is where I believe many hunters in today's society fall short, and in doing so seem to miss the whole point of being a houndsmen. For it was in those bad nights, and in the hours of hard work, careful instruction, patience, determination, and understanding that a bond was formed. A bond that can't be taking away or broke by a bad night or another hunters slanderous words.
I have found in my limited experience with hounds that even though they are just dogs. That each hound is its own individual, and each hound in order to reach its full potential needs a caring, understanding and patient trainer. Yes some may finish at a faster pace then others, but really is that why coon hunt? To have a dog that starts quickly and finishes even faster? Or is it to own a hound where the bond is something unexplainable, something that only another houndsmen can understand. If these are our goals then why do so many of us sell ourselves short and the influence we can have our hounds. Why do we so easily throw our hands up in defeat and simply say "it's genetics it can't be fixed" After all isn't bringing up a pup more about the process, the journey, seeing the hound progress, and mature. So I must ask wonder why so many of us are so eager to write a pup off or give up on a started pup, that we once had such high hopes for. I would venture to say it may be because our human nature, and our ambitions or the "need it now" mentality that is so common in our society. Or maybe it's just the plain fatigue, and countless hours that it takes to mold a hound, and with so many other obligations outside of hunting that wear us down and beat us up. Whatever the reasons, I feel that giving up on a pup should never be decided after a bad night or on an impulse or whim, but is a decision that should be decided over the course of several weeks and or months.
So if your sitting there reading this, and feel like this describes your recent luck in hunting and training pups, I challenge you to remember why we do what we do. It's not to have the best hound, or be the biggest winner it's about the dogs, the process, and the bond that is formed from the countless hours it takes. So the next time you have a string of bad luck or the results aren't how you pictured, remember it's in those nights and countless hours that the magic happens. Even though it's exhausting, trying and filled with disappointments, it's the process that makes it worth while. As for that pup that your working on even though he isn't much now, he may be able to teach you a thing or 2 about dogs and yourself. Just maybe some day may bring a smile to your face and to me that's why I coon hunt.

Posted by deschmidt27 on 08-17-2014 04:14 PM:

Very thought provoking and well written... thank you!

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Posted by Bill(Chew) on 08-17-2014 04:41 PM:

I have to agree with you. A dog does not have to be a "WORLD CHAMPION" to be a good dog. We have to many that believe that if it's not a competition hound by twelve months it's a cull. Some excellent dogs are not "COMPETITION HOUNDS"

I also believe that some things are genetic and can't be "FIXED". You can't fix a dog that has NO treeing instinct but they may excel in a deer, fox, coyote, bear or hog pack.

Sadly many pups are ruined by things that are often beyond our control; hot fences, ill dogs, coyotes, etc. If you think about all the things that can go wrong it a wonder how many do make it.

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Bill Harper
Washington, NC
252-944-5592

Posted by john Duemmer on 08-17-2014 04:55 PM:

The other side of the coin.
Its genetic it cant be fixed, and even if you fix it i dont want that dog.
The reality of our sport is that those (fixeruper)dogs do end up being bred and they produce more pups with the same genetic flaws that their parents had.
None of them are perfect but most serious houndsmen are always looking for something better, the problem is that everybody has a different idea of better.
If hunters would stop makeing excuses and cull the ones that dont show all the tools required at an early age, we would all have better pups to hunt in just a few generations.

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Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by randy steadman on 08-17-2014 05:10 PM:

GREAT ARTICLE DOGS ARE LIKE PEOPLE SOME GIVE UP ON THEM TO EASY IF YOU KNOW THE BACKGROUD OF GENES YOU GOT TO JUST KEEP THE FAITH

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Randy steadman

Posted by Fisher13 on 08-17-2014 07:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
The other side of the coin.
Its genetic it cant be fixed, and even if you fix it i dont want that dog.
The reality of our sport is that those (fixeruper)dogs do end up being bred and they produce more pups with the same genetic flaws that their parents had.
None of them are perfect but most serious houndsmen are always looking for something better, the problem is that everybody has a different idea of better.
If hunters would stop makeing excuses and cull the ones that dont show all the tools required at an early age, we would all have better pups to hunt in just a few generations.

John, I know we disagree on this subject. Even though you already know my opinions on this subject. I will go ahead and explain myself for other people reading this thread so they can go ahead and form there own opinions.

I feel if more guys took more responsibility,time and energy into working with what they have, they would gain a greater understanding of dogs, which in turn should raise there standards for what they breed. This also would reduce the number of culls which in turn would reduce the number of puppies being bought which would also reduce the number of guys breeding because the demand would diminish.

I know we can both agree on this and that is there are way to many crosses being made by inexperienced and unqualified breeders. How to fix the problem is where we disagree. I think the quickest way to curb this is to reduce the demand. In my opinion right or wrong, I feel it's from guys culling too much and buying to many puppies. Instead of improving there training techniques and understanding of dogs.
I can only speak from my past experiences, but the more I understand dogs the less qualified I feel to breed and the greater appreciation I have for those few that are successfully making good crosses.

Posted by Fisher13 on 08-17-2014 08:06 PM:

Re: g

quote:
Originally posted by randy steadman
GREAT ARTICLE DOGS ARE LIKE PEOPLE SOME GIVE UP ON THEM TO EASY IF YOU KNOW THE BACKGROUD OF GENES YOU GOT TO JUST KEEP THE FAITH

Bingo! Training dogs will improve you as a person as much and if not more then dog. It goes against much of what our society teaches. Dogs can be a great tool to self improvement, and a great confidence builder for many.

Posted by bowling on 08-17-2014 09:01 PM:

90 percent of the time it's not the dog it's the man behind it or the trainer so to speak I have made plenty enough to pay for the habit it is amazing what twenty nights in a row of hunting will do for a dog. Most don't have enough patience or time we as humans have just as many faults and shortcomings as dogs some just want admit it sometimes it takes almost a lifetime to grow up. Some dogs are the same way. All it takes in most dogs is someone that has the time and the patience to put in it. I am self employed and blessed to have time to do what I want so I love to hunt one out that some guys say can't be fixed. Just recently sold one to a guy that has granded him out and won state championship that I let a man try he hunted him one moonlight night and brought him back I know that dog was a lot smarter than the man that tried him.

Posted by cripple creek on 08-17-2014 11:10 PM:

well said and written.
You cant leave a pup in the pen for its first 12 to 14 months and then compain after 10 hunts he is not a coondog.
The first 5 months of a pups life are the most critical in my opinion.
Dr.'s have determined that children have learned most of their thought processes by the time they are 5 years old. Of course they learn more things, but how they process and learn is mainly developed by then.
Same with a dog. How they relate to their owner/trainer/master/friend the early months sets the stage for their ability to learn later.

Good stuff.

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Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 08-18-2014 12:26 AM:

Fisher I always enjoy your take on things. Its new, its refreshing, and its from a real dog lover point of view. I can't disagree with you on any of it as it is your perogative and coon hunting as you said is about working with dogs and who is to say what coon hunting is or is not to another hunter? Certainly not me.

We are the same in that I am a hound lover also, but I love for ability and performance, not the sake of being. A hound to me is a tool if you will. My relationship with them is strictly business. Not that we can't have a friendly business relationship, but it is business. My time is valuable and I have a lot of choices on how to spend my limited leisure minutes and a dog that I am going to spend it with has to give me reason to want to do so. Going out night after night and leaving with frustration just isn't going to cut it after a certain point. You just naturally want to move on to something that makes the time you spend with it at least feel productive.

To me its like being a coach of a basketball team. I have two guys one with all the skills to be a good player and one who is lacking. Some coaches may take great pride and feel great reward of spending twice as much time and putting in twice as much effort into the kid who lacks skills.....while others may just enjoy working with the kid with all the talent who gets to the same end point faster and has a higher ceiling. I just happen to fall into the category of coach #2.

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Ron Ashbaugh
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Posted by Fisher13 on 08-18-2014 02:03 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Ashbaugh
Fisher I always enjoy your take on things. Its new, its refreshing, and its from a real dog lover point of view. I can't disagree with you on any of it as it is your perogative and coon hunting as you said is about working with dogs and who is to say what coon hunting is or is not to another hunter? Certainly not me.

We are the same in that I am a hound lover also, but I love for ability and performance, not the sake of being. A hound to me is a tool if you will. My relationship with them is strictly business. Not that we can't have a friendly business relationship, but it is business. My time is valuable and I have a lot of choices on how to spend my limited leisure minutes and a dog that I am going to spend it with has to give me reason to want to do so. Going out night after night and leaving with frustration just isn't going to cut it after a certain point. You just naturally want to move on to something that makes the time you spend with it at least feel productive.

To me its like being a coach of a basketball team. I have two guys one with all the skills to be a good player and one who is lacking. Some coaches may take great pride and feel great reward of spending twice as much time and putting in twice as much effort into the kid who lacks skills.....while others may just enjoy working with the kid with all the talent who gets to the same end point faster and has a higher ceiling. I just happen to fall into the category of coach #2.

Ron I appreciate your take as always! The funny thing is after our conversations, I honestly think you have more patience with a dog then I do

Obviously no one is going to put up with a complete dud, that won't do anything. My posts are just as much to get people to think outside the box then anything else. I am still learning a lot about the capabilities of hounds, the different styles and there abilities, etc.etc. However just from basic dog training principles I read and see a lot of very misinformed truths or old wise tails in the dog sporting world. However unlike bird dog men, it seems to me that houndsmen tend to have a more humble approach to life and are willing to accept new ideas or at least have a discussion. I enjoy the psychological aspect of dog training and discussing it with others. Not only that but this is the real purpose of online forums, to share information,network and learn and better ourselves as a community. The more that contribute and people can openly discuss ideas with our being bashed the better the forum will become and the more people will benefit. I hope the forums here can continue to grow, and help our sport improve in the sharing of information.

Posted by Fisher13 on 08-18-2014 02:09 AM:

Re: x2

quote:
Originally posted by cripple creek
well said and written.
You cant leave a pup in the pen for its first 12 to 14 months and then compain after 10 hunts he is not a coondog.
The first 5 months of a pups life are the most critical in my opinion.
Dr.'s have determined that children have learned most of their thought processes by the time they are 5 years old. Of course they learn more things, but how they process and learn is mainly developed by then.
Same with a dog. How they relate to their owner/trainer/master/friend the early months sets the stage for their ability to learn later.

Good stuff.

Cripple, thanks for the comments they mean a lot coming from a reputable guy like you. I hope all is well with your program, some day I hope to chat! In the meantime when I have more time I would like to research this subject, I have heard rumors of the age of 7 months being the latest for brain development in puppies but I have found males seem to respond better later then females. I guess it may have something to do with there slower maturing process.
I may make a future post on this, and will be looking forward to your comments. Btw I agree completely a 100 percent on this subject, it is by far the most underappreciated and most misunderstood time in a puppies life.

Posted by squirrelhunter7 on 08-18-2014 03:10 AM:

Good post, I really think a lot more dogs would make it given the chance. Most people that are dog people, including me, have more dogs than they can hunt. Always searching for that better dog

Posted by elvis on 08-18-2014 06:02 PM:

Another point of veiw.
I believe I wasted the better part of my coonhunting life trying to make dogs into somthing they werent.
I think the world is full of mediocre dogs that will tree a coon whos owner has bonded with them and therefore overlooks a lot of weaknesses and really lies to himself about what he/she is leading.
Life is too short to take a very long time to train somthing into a dog that it should have been born with.
Experience will tell you more or less what you can change or cant change and bonding with that pup will make you blind to those facts.

jmo
marv

Posted by K Slim on 08-18-2014 06:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by elvis
Another point of veiw.
I believe I wasted the better part of my coonhunting life trying to make dogs into somthing they werent.
I think the world is full of mediocre dogs that will tree a coon whos owner has bonded with them and therefore overlooks a lot of weaknesses and really lies to himself about what he/she is leading.
Life is too short to take a very long time to train somthing into a dog that it should have been born with.
Experience will tell you more or less what you can change or cant change and bonding with that pup will make you blind to those facts.

jmo
marv

This I agree with 100% !! When you had one that shows you what a coon dog is supposed to be, its hard to settle for anything less ! Some day when I get another good one, Boy will I bond with it ! Lol

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Posted by Larry Atherton on 08-18-2014 06:38 PM:

The answer may still be the problem is genetic. It may not be in the trainer's genetics to be patient.

Kidding a side, I learned most everything I know about dogs through the school Hard Knocks (bad decisions), sometimes my own hard headedness, and too emotionally attached.

There is merit to both points of view. A hound who naturally knows its job seems much easier to train night after night. On the flip side, a trainer figuring out the key to correcting a serious fault can be very rewarding.

Fisher, I believe most of us start out much like you, but as we get older we also recognize the importance of time. Wasting time on a could be great hound just doesn't seem as good of an investment as when we were young.

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Posted by critter on 08-18-2014 06:49 PM:

responce to Elvis and Slim.

I will try not to be long winded.Im a dyed in the wool plott man,got my first plott in 1965.In 1976 i meant a man,Dale Brandenberger who i guess you could say ended up being my mentor.In 1978 i was visiting Dale and my buddy who went with me asked Dale a question i was scared to ask.He asked (Dale,if you had it to do over what would you do different.I about fell out of my chair when Dale answered(I would have had better dogs.)I said what do you mean?He said ,and i never forgot-I would have culled quicker.I wasted so much time on junk dogs.I believe in giving a pup a fair chance but like a buddy of mine says you can take it out of them but you cant put itin them.Nuff said.

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Posted by WV Hound on 08-18-2014 09:18 PM:

I really enjoyed this article as I prepare myself to train, two pups that Im excited to start.

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Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 08-18-2014 09:19 PM:

The last 4 posts are just so on the money from people with a ton of experience. You guys really know how to put reality into words.

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Ron Ashbaugh
CROOKED FOOT KENNELS

Posted by Fisher13 on 08-19-2014 11:59 AM:

Let me start with a question, Considering the majority of the coon hound world thinks like you guys do.... why aren't our breeds beyond exceptional?

I understand your points and clearly there is a balance to this topic, but as a general rule I feel that this community is too hung up on breeding and genetics. IF MORE HUNTERS FOCUSED ON BEING THE BEST TRAINER THEY COULD BE!!! INSTEAD OF SO CALLLED BREEDER!!! GUESSS WHAT.... YOU GOT IT OUR BREED WOULD IMPROVE!!!!
You can't fix something that is broken if you don't understand why its broken in the first place. If you don't know dogs and understand them how in the world can you expect to breed them and improve the breed??? You meaning the general community, not any one in particular.

Why is it the best trainers have the best dogs? Yeah maybe they cull a few more then average hunter....but they learned to recognize talent by working with what they had, putting in the boots time, and getting to know a dog from front to back.

Why are there so many guys breeding puppy after puppy... because for some strange reason they think there going to pop out some genetic wonder from the crap stock there breeding??? They are doing this because they are selling themselves short and there ability to have an impact on a hound, so instead of improving there training and understanding of a dog, they start to breed. Then they think they will get something good, from there average dogs??? How does this make any sense???

I don't blame an experienced hunter for being picky in what he decides to put his time into and a lot of that goes back to being buyer beware. The breeder you purchase your puppies from has more of an impact on what you have to work with then anything else..yes that is genetic, but culling a dog that other wise could be well appreciated due to lack of understanding and trainer ability, no breeder can fix that... regardless of how good of a dog they are breeding.
Yes the best ones due it all natural so they can make an average hunter and trainer look better then they are, however an exceptional trainer can and will make that dog exceptional.

So what's my point?? Well I think I made several but as a whole in our community, the more we improve our training abilities and understanding of a dog the better off our dogs will be and our sense of accomplishment. The bottom line is this an above average trainer will take an average dog and make them above average, the average trainer more times then not will just have average. This is an indisputable point that can't be argued.

Yes we would all like to invest our time wisely, but you have to crawl before you can walk. You guys that know how valuable time is wouldn't have gotten where you are if you didn't first invest your time. Yes I do love dogs, and so do you guys or you wouldn't be doing this. Yes I do get attached, but this is also what drives me to sacrifice so much to get out in the woods. I wish nothing other for my dogs to succeed in what they were bred to do, and I feel as long as this is my focus, instead of caring what my neighbor thinks about me and my dogs or my own personal ambitions, I will have many years of enjoyment to come.

I think many of your guys arguments are valid and applicable, but I feel like I hear your side of the argument a lot more then mine in our community. I personally just think it's always a good idea to be looking at ones self and trying to improve. Let's face we can always blame it on the dog and they have no way of defending themselves,but it takes humility and wisdom to take an honest look in the mirror.

Posted by K Slim on 08-19-2014 12:44 PM:

Fisher , I see were you are coming from . I think what most of us are saying is it just don't seem to work the way you think it should ! I know from my own expereants , no matter how much you bond with a pup and work with that pup in the first few months of its life if it's not born with the right tools there's no way , I'll say no way the best trainer in the world can get something out of it,if it's not born with the right tools ! It can be the best houndy looking dog , out of 2 world champs , don't care if you wear out a pair of boots in a week hunting the hound 8 hours a night for 3 mo in a row ! If it dosent have the tools it's nothing but a waist of time .... I give dogs more time then most , but having done this coon hunting thing for some time you get a knack of knowing with hunting a dog hard every night if it has it or it dosent . The guys I know that always impressed me with always having a good hound on the end of there lead don't wasit time when it comes to culling the bad ones ! Not trying to be a A HOLE , just trying to help!!.... Kevin

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Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 08-19-2014 01:06 PM:

Fisher:

Can you make a list of traits that you think the coonhound world views as "cullable" but you view as fixable? I think that may help understanding a little more of what you are talking about. I think most of us are talking about teaching a dog to hunt and tree raccoon and be good at it, which I don't believe you can teach any dog.

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The fun is over once you pull the trigger

Ron Ashbaugh
CROOKED FOOT KENNELS

Posted by K Slim on 08-19-2014 01:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Ashbaugh
Fisher:

Can you make a list of traits that you think the coonhound world views as "cullable" but you view as fixable? I think that may help understanding a little more of what you are talking about. I think most of us are talking about teaching a dog to hunt and tree raccoon and be good at it, which I don't believe you can teach any dog.

Good point Ron ! This will help !

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Posted by John D on 08-19-2014 02:49 PM:

This subject can obviously go a lot of different directions.

Its a very gray area. Of course we've all seen people mess with dogs too long that just didn't have it and even more dogs with the genetics to make something that didn't have what was needed on the other end of the leash. IMO, this all works out in the end because the results aren't very good and are fairly obvious. These dogs don't get bred much.

The most danger to the coonhound breeds, imo, is the dog that is lacking but gets that top trainer/handler and the financing to enter a lot of hunts. In comp. hunting it doesn't matter how many you lost before you get a win because only wins count. So, a big part of winning is about how many hunts your financing will allow. But I digress.

So, this genetically inferior dog over achieves and wins some big hunts and gets a big name. Breeders who just breed for "winners" breed to the dog and guess what? They get just exactly what they bred for. But they may not even realize it. They don't understand why that top dog doesn't throw much of anything? It puzzles them. They say breeding coondogs is luck, a shot in the dark, and so on. They might get really lucky and produce one pup that does something big and and some will say the dog is reproducing, lol. Then the winning pup gets bred and the cycle repeats.

There is nothing wrong with a winner, but before I bred to one I'd have to check him out to see if he has the genetics to produce natural pups. I'm talking about WHOLE LITTERS that can make coondogs if hunted. They don't necessarily require a top trainer but if they do get a top trainer they can go to the top.

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Posted by ant12 on 08-19-2014 04:28 PM:

Hard Lesson

Its a hard maybe the hardest lesson to learn in coonhunting, we only have so much capital investment period, our time. It seems we dont learn this until we each get some age on us and some never do. We only have so many hours in the woods period. Some more than others some less but each of our lives and schedule determine that, we only have so many nights in the woods. So this is really not a hard descision, if you knew going in you only had 100 nights in the woods, how would you spend that time? We all have more than that but it is a determinable number its not infinite. So with those 100 nights would you follow and work on dog A who hardly goes has no hunt, or many flaws so you can Hopefully fix. Or eventually give up and start again. Or dog B who goes from the start is not a coondog but takes steps each time and not all forward but takes steps. We would all choose A. The deal is there are plenty enough A's out there you dont have to waste your Capital Time messing with B. And why would you so in the end at 2 years or more you can say look at what I did. And who wants a dog from that you dont. Weed through them find the A's to spend your time with. It will better the breed and be much more enjoyable. The hard part is letting go of the financial lose, get over move on. You may stop too soon on one but the % will be very low, on the ones you are wrong about. Ron said it best it is a business relationship, best to cut your loses before you sink more of the one thing you cant afford your time. The only way to get more A's is cut loose of the B's quicker.

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