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-- False Papers (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928330053)

False Papers

How often is it for breeders to put false papers on a dog...and I'm not talking about Joe Shmoe, the unknown dogman trying to make a buck, but well established successful dog breeders putting false papers on dogs?

And, if it is known, that a well established breeder has, or is, putting false papers on dogs, does that have a determining factor on rather or not you would own/hunt those dogs?

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Jeremy Gunter
Eagle Creek Kennels
Ohatchee, AL

Jeremy I think as most criminal activity the false paper thing is done where it his hidden from the light of day so to speak...but really
nobody knows the whole truth except those that have done the crime and in the matter of dogs and other things there too many larger crimes that we all should be concerned about...I think that we should except the past breeding practices for what they were and go forward with absolute integrity....papers concern me only as a tool. I believe that a dog should be taken at face value...if I like him I like no matter what his papers say....I believe this is where preference trumps prejudice.

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"Lonesome Native Kennels"

quote:

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Originally posted by Layarddog
Jeremy I think as most criminal activity the false paper thing is done where it his hidden from the light of day so to speak...but really
nobody knows the whole truth except those that have done the crime and in the matter of dogs and other things there too many larger crimes that we all should be concerned about...I think that we should except the past breeding practices for what they were and go forward with absolute integrity....papers concern me only as a tool. I believe that a dog should be taken at face value...if I like him I like no matter what his papers say....I believe this is where preference trumps prejudice.

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Jeremy Gunter
Eagle Creek Kennels
Ohatchee, AL

Only the guys doing it would know , and they aint talking. How hard is it to order an extra set of puppy papers and then put them on the best pup out of a crossed litter? I lost a pup out of my litter so i have a set. But im gonna burn m!

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http://cherokeemountaincur.weebly.com/
In all thy ways acknowledge him and he shall direct thy paths.
Cherokee Jett omcba , ukc ,wtda ,nkc registered

Well, people know...someone ALWAYS talks...even done in private, it will be made known to the public at some point in time...just seems like that is the way this life works.

Tn Russ...I've lost pups too, and burned the puppy papers asap.

But, someone always talks..eventually...at least it seems that way.

I'm just curious as to how common it is...the more I talk to different people...seems like it's fairly common. Just curious.

That is one of the biggest advantages to Treeing Curs and Treeing Feist...only conformation is size and ability...no closed Stud books...I'm sure false papers happen there as well, but there is no need, other than someone just wants to be dishonest...

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Jeremy Gunter
Eagle Creek Kennels
Ohatchee, AL

I hear you. I have no idea how often it happens. And probably we are better off not knowing. I tried treeing curs years ago and didn't like the results. Ive tried hybrids too .. had some good success with non register d full blood curs but couldnt give them away around here so i made up my mind on omcba and sticking with them.

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http://cherokeemountaincur.weebly.com/
In all thy ways acknowledge him and he shall direct thy paths.
Cherokee Jett omcba , ukc ,wtda ,nkc registered

I just finished reading the thread "Mtn Cur Color"...didn't know you guys had already been discussing this topic...my thread was sparked by something totally different.

Thanks for the input, I've experienced this myself, and was just curious on the thoughts of others...even though I do not currently own a Mtn. Cur, the post in that thread was informative and answered some of my questions...yes, I'm all for DNA.

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Jeremy Gunter
Eagle Creek Kennels
Ohatchee, AL

In the 50 plus years of the OMCBA.....

......There have been 2 folks expelled from the membership, to the best of my knowledge, for falsely registering dogs. One permanently, the other for a period of years.

Mark.

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Home of Mtn. St. Apache

Re: In the 50 plus years of the OMCBA.....

quote:

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Originally posted by mdmorrison
......There have been 2 folks expelled from the membership, to the best of my knowledge, for falsely registering dogs. One permanently, the other for a period of years.

Mark.

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Jeremy Gunter
Eagle Creek Kennels
Ohatchee, AL

Re: In the 50 plus years of the OMCBA.....

quote:

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Originally posted by mdmorrison
......There have been 2 folks expelled from the membership, to the best of my knowledge, for falsely registering dogs. One permanently, the other for a period of years.

Mark.

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It's a more common problem than most people think. It's not always about financial gain. Ego often trumps honor when it comes to what's written on a set of papers.

I learned long ago to buy the dog not the breeding because I learned how deceiving a set of papers really is, especially DNA testing came along.

Jeremy, the short answer to your question is yes it happens with fair frequency across a broad spectrum of livestock breeders. And no I wouldn't let it dissuade me from a particular breeder, I just wouldn't talk papers and judge by the individual dog.

The AQHA figured out how to fix the problem, but then theres a lot of money at stake there so they had the means to do it right.

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All We Know Is All We Are

Remember one thing. The love of money is the root of all evil. All i really want is a natural born tree dog!! And man they are hard to get! Hope i have some juussst about ready.

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http://cherokeemountaincur.weebly.com/
In all thy ways acknowledge him and he shall direct thy paths.
Cherokee Jett omcba , ukc ,wtda ,nkc registered

I love omcba and really like a lot of treeing curs. I myself don't see how a person thinks they can get away with it because it is gonna show down the line. Lots of real good even great dogs have questionable ancestory and it has shown itself generations latter but those dogs were good or great and if I would be looking at a dog and it was out of a questionable line if I could tell that the dogs in the particular dog I was looking at met my standards then I really wouldn't have a problem with it as they would be far enough away from the questionable breeding to likely not have many of those questionable genes in the dog. I did make a mistake and bread to a dog that had a particular streak breed dog in it's pedigree and half of the dogs were real small and those dogs that were small did not turn out to be hard tree dogs like we all like but oddly enough these dogs retained enought of the qualities of my female that after almost three years of the breeding that people are contacting me asking if there are any out of her or comparable bloodlines out there. Just got a letter the other day from a man who tracked me down. My female is the best natured dog bar none that you would ever want to see and the pups got that from her and being that they are so loveable and easy to handle and such a pleasure to be in the woods folks overlook the fact that these little dogs aren't the hard treedogs like their momma is and they really want a dog out of the same cross but I would not do it again just for the fact that they were not the ultimate cross that I would like. Now if my female had a predictable heat cycle and I could breed her to Apache, Geronimo or Super Black Eagle I would gaurantee those pups would have the size, the hunt, and the handle that would satisfy bout anyone. Not saying any dogs in the stud of the litter was false papered 'cept maybe back a few generations and it showed up in about half the pups in my litter because she also had some of that particular dog in her and it just so lined up that it showed up. Now looking back the one dog that had that dog in it's pedigree was a great dog but small and had ears that would stand up at times. Bet half of you folks can guess the name of that dog that was in the pedigree now. I am sure Mr. Morrison can hit it right on the head because when I was researching the bloodline I came up with some threads where he was asking about this particular male.

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GOD BLESS

It happens sometimes. I'm gong to tell you a true story. I know some of you have heard of Houses Lipper. Lipper probably has more pups on the ground than any other Treeing Walker. If not, he's close. He naturally has a bunch of Nite Ch. and Gr. Nites out of him. Well, I know a guy that bred to Lipper. He wanted a big litter to sell, so he also threw her in the pen with a young dog of his. I think he sold 10 or 11 out of this "litter". In a minute, you will all understand. OK.. the pups grow up and one is a real nice dog and she finishes out to Dual Gr. Ch. The guy is naturally proud and decides to have her DNA profiled. Well, they do the swab on her and it comes back that Lipper wasn't the sire. So, they go to tracking down the rest of the litter and test all of them. The results of this were crazy wild. Some were out of the right parents, some were out of the right female but not Lper and some weren't out of either.

With that being said..I am all in favor of DNA testing for all.

No way to know what you got unless you breed what you got.

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www.dividinglinekennel.com

Jeremy,
I know it happened and have seen it happen. I know several breeders that do it and I don't fool with them, but let me share some other perspectives.

I have over 200 pedigrees and have talked to three different registries and can tell you that many mistakes are made in clerical errors.

Also, there are accidents in breeding where two sires mate the same dam, and she throws a single litter.

Lastly, on large operations it is easy to send out the wrong pup paper especially when you have a couple litters on the ground at the same time. I have seen one kennel where two litters got mixed together and I wondered how other than DNA it was ever going to get resolved.

I DNA all my dogs that I breed now, but I don't the litter unless the customer wants the pup DNA'd and verified. That obviously increases the price, but that said I have never had any want to verify a pup. I give them the option and they seem comfortable with it. I don't have a large kennel so that has a lot to do with it.

My dogs are also DNA profiled

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L.H. & Curt Ladner Blackmouth Curs in Michigan

Not talking about hounds just curs, who has been kicked out for this kind of stuff. What was is two years ago the vp of the Kemmer association was booted for false paper. Who in the OMCBA?

I don't get why folks feel the need to do such things. I mean in the long run there is nothing to gain and people put faith in a breeder to give them what they pay for. But like a guy told me while I was still hunting hounds, "If it looks like a hound and hunts like a hound, who cares if the papers are right. All the papers do is get you in the hunt." I would say that there are a few Treeing curs hunting in the OMCBA just because they look like a cur and hunt like a cur. I know for a fact that I feel I can trust a few guys I have met on here to be straight and honest. But the dog trader will always be around.

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Danny VunCannon
Home of :
Amazing Grace
Mossy Pond Modacious (MO)
Mossy Pond Amazing Gracie

Thanks for the comments!

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Jeremy Gunter
Eagle Creek Kennels
Ohatchee, AL

the worst one i've heard of prospered quite a bit from false papers

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J.T.Robinson
oldman_bc@yahoo. com

Pound Va

Ph: 276-796-5321

i'm drinking from my saucer
cause my cup has overflowed

Careful...

quote:

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Originally posted by oldman
the worst one i've heard of prospered quite a bit from false papers

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Home of Mtn. St. Apache

i think the only way it would matter is if you went to buy a pup and papers wernt rite other than that who really cares what happend years ago if someone told me my females papers wernt wright because her grandpaw was off of a fiest not a cur it wouldnt change anything hell i would have to say good job because i got a good one

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odg

A Well Known Reputable Breeder that been line breeding his dogs for years and stands behinds his pups isn't gonna do that, at least the bredders I personally know and that's only two of them :-) they don't want their name on a hound that's not from them :-)

Hearsay
























Fact....yep, nowhere close. If u can't prove it, it's just another rumor.

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" You can lead a donkey to water, but he is still an ass".