UKC Forums - High Drive

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Posted by RedScorpion on 11-08-2017 10:52 PM:

High Drive

What is your definition of high drive?

A few years ago, this topic was covered on the B&T boards and it brought out some very good thinking and intelligent responses, including those by L. Richard who contributes to Redbone threads from time to time (wanted to give credit where it is due). It really made me think about what we really are looking for in a good dog in the “drive” department. I think we all realized by the end of the thread that most of us were looking for a dog with characteristics somewhere in between what we have now and that hard going, “deep and lonely” dog that many use to describe a “top dog.” I think high drive = desire.

This topic has been brought up on numerous redbone threads many times and for a number of reasons, many very appropriate. Some redbones (as well as other breeds) are described as lacking drive and are lazy; I know that I have fought that kind in my litters and in purchased pups my whole life. If you have not had that problem and have found the answers, this thread is not for you. But before we can discuss drive in a dog, we must first settle in our minds what you are looking for; especially if you are a breeder.

Many things have become almost cliché in the coon dog world. High drive, for example, is sometimes described as “busting a hole in the dark,” “deep and alone” and “kicking dirt in your face.” I guess as long as the dog you are hunting does those things and still keeps hunting and tracking on his mind, these are OK and even desired, in some cases. I think that the geography where a person hunts has a lot to do with the definition that people use to describe “drive” and what kind and amount and type of drive they need. But you can breed these things in until that’s all that is done and the dog only will tree or chase game when it trips on it, usually very far from where turned loose.

In the terrain and geography that I hunt, “high drive” is witnessed in a dog that hustles and is always looking for game; treeing coon where and when you aren't used to and doing stuff the other dogs in the cast don't or can’t; being able to use all of that natural instinct to get after stuff and tree without it overwhelming them; being able to use their heads under situations where many dogs lose their heads; staying treed when three dogs burn a deer right past them because they know it is the right thing to do; staying treed when a screaming mouthed dog is treed right next to them; or treeing 4-6 coon on an average night when most guys are treeing 2-3, to me that's high drive. Or when a dog will take to water to continue tracking or because they smell one on the other side; or treeing coon at dawn after you hunted all night; or sticking with a track that other dogs quit; or it is a dog that is staying amped up and hustling all night. High drive is never in a lazy dog.

In my experience and in my geography and terrain, I don't see a lot of naturally high headed, wild running dogs that do those things ... I've done my share of chasing down dogs that run creeks, paths, and roads and eventually fall treed. Or those that will take an edge like a bird dog and won’t slow down until they are 800 yards away. That isn’t a useful kind of “drive” in my area.

What is your definition of “high drive?”

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 11-09-2017 03:23 AM:

In a competition dog....its One that tries harder than "most" other dogs he or she draws.
One that doesn't give up and is hard to wear down.
One that unless you call it back...your probably going to have to go get it off a tree somewhere. They can be loners, or more packish....but if other dogs in the cast won't bust out and get deep...they will if they need to.
That's what high drive means to me in a competition dog.

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Posted by okreddog56 on 11-09-2017 05:31 AM:

WHERE I HUNT YOU ARE NOT GOING TO TREE MANY COON WITHOUT IT AND SURE ARE NOT GOING WIN ANY HUNTS IF YOU DON'T HAVE IT,BUT SOME OF THEM ARE NOT VERY FUN TO HUNT WHEN THEY ARE YOUNG,BUT YOU HAVE A GOOD DOG OUNCE YOU GET A HANDLE ON THEM.

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Posted by Adam Wingler on 11-09-2017 02:45 PM:

Great topic

If I had a nickel for every dog I was told “you’d pull em off a tree somewhere”, I’d have about 15 cents. And that goes for all breeds.

Lacking drive has always appeared to me to be one of the most engrained and difficult FAULTS of coonhounds in general. Maybe because well before registries rewarded them dead loners the pack nature of all hounds was so deep it’ll never be eliminated. And of course the overwhelming majority of Coonhunters want a pack dog whether they’ll admit it or not. Or they’ll always have one as they’re more afraid of the dark alone than their me-too junk.

Anyhow, the level of non-stop overwhelming desire to hunt til their heart explodes is how I measure drive. That doesn’t always mean they have to always be 2 miles away, but that’s part of the equation, they gotta find one they can finish and not miss. That same drive, when channeled correctly, also means they want a real live coon at the end, not just “making something happen” for no reason.

It’s HARD to find, and getting harder it seems. It’s also very hard to work with when they’re young, but that drive, above ALL else, will keep me messing with a young one even when it seems nothing is going right.

Posted by Have One Reds on 11-09-2017 04:28 PM:

Re: Great topic

quote:
Originally posted by Adam Wingler
If I had a nickel for every dog I was told “you’d pull em off a tree somewhere”, I’d have about 15 cents. And that goes for all breeds.

Lacking drive has always appeared to me to be one of the most engrained and difficult FAULTS of coonhounds in general. Maybe because well before registries rewarded them dead loners the pack nature of all hounds was so deep it’ll never be eliminated. And of course the overwhelming majority of Coonhunters want a pack dog whether they’ll admit it or not. Or they’ll always have one as they’re more afraid of the dark alone than their me-too junk.

Anyhow, the level of non-stop overwhelming desire to hunt til their heart explodes is how I measure drive. That doesn’t always mean they have to always be 2 miles away, but that’s part of the equation, they gotta find one they can finish and not miss. That same drive, when channeled correctly, also means they want a real live coon at the end, not just “making something happen” for no reason.

It’s HARD to find, and getting harder it seems. It’s also very hard to work with when they’re young, but that drive, above ALL else, will keep me messing with a young one even when it seems nothing is going right.

Good post Adam and you bring up a good point. Drive seems harder to come-by in all Coondog breeds these days, not just redbones. How do we fix it and still keep the brains in that can handle the drive?

__________________
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Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-09-2017 04:33 PM:

First off there is drive and there is anti-social behavior. You have to be able to recognize the difference. Anti-social behavior is a whole nuther topic. But I believe that drive is like tree, you can breed too much drive into a dog. Now some people don't think that there is such a thing as too much drive. But that is a personal preference. I don't want to spend half of my time looking for or chasing my dog. I want them to leave out looking for a coon, not slinging gravel and racing away from me. There is desire to cover territory as fast as possible and there is desire to get treed. There is also desire to get deep if need be and there is desire to get lonely.

Posted by okreddog56 on 11-09-2017 06:12 PM:

SOME PEOPLE DON'T KNOW HOW TO HANDLE A YOUNG DOG THAT HAS A LOT OF DRIVE AND THEY GET RID OF THEM,AND SOMEONE WHO KNOWS HOW TO HANDLE IT MAKES A COONDOG OUT OF IT THAT IS HARD TO BEAT,MY DAZY FEMALE IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF IT ,I SOLD HER AT 10 MONTHS OLD TO A GUY THAT THOUGH HE WANTED A DOG LIKE THAT FOR A LARGE SOME,AFTER 3 MONTHS OF HUNTING HER HE DECIDED HE COULDN'T HANDLE HER SO I BOUGHT HER BACK AND SHE WAS NOT EASY WHEN SHE WAS YOUNG BUT I KNEW SHE HAD IT AND STUCK WITH HER.YOU HAVE GOT TO ASK YOURSELF DO I WANT A PLEASURE DOG OR DO I WANT A DOG THAT CAN GO COMPETE WITH THE WALKER DOGS AND WIN,BECAUSE THESE DOGS WITH HARD DRIVE SURE ARE NOT A PLEASURE TO HUNT WHEN THEY ARE YOUNG.

Posted by L.Richard on 11-13-2017 11:39 AM:

High drive?

I think the question has always been....if we can breed for it, who has it, and does it get reproduced in high percentages?

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-13-2017 01:49 PM:

You can breed for it but who wants to? That is the question. You can breed for any trait but when you breed for one single trait then you lose other traits. And you have to ask yourself is there such a thing as too much drive. Some will say no but I think that the majority would say yes.
Do the majority of Redbone men want a dog that blows through the country? Or do they want a dog that is a pleasure to hunt? In the past if you wanted a dog that blew out you hunted a walker. But now it seems like there are some that want Redbones to be just red colored walker dogs.
Breeding in more hunt willl take years or decades if you do it right. Or you can take a short cut and just breed to a "leave the country" crazy walker dog. You have to increase the hunt without losing the good traits that you want also. And is there really that big of a demand for more "drive"?
Adding drive is just like adding tree power. It can be done but you will end up with a bunch of tree happy idiots. Just ask the walker dog people.

Posted by L.Richard on 11-13-2017 03:51 PM:

good point

Mr. Lambert...if it can be bred for,who is doing it,and who has it?

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Posted by Adam Wingler on 11-13-2017 03:56 PM:

Richard, clearly some people want to breed for it and demand it, I could ask why in the world someone wants a lazy dog. And majority? You’re likely close with that but who gives a crap what the majority wants, that wasn’t part of the original topic.

I’ll get it even more de-railed here but what do you breed for Richard? You raise numerous litters per year. Is every pup you create fit the majority mold as you see it? Is it not possible to have drive with accuracy? Is it not possible to have a dog with the guts to tree one alone drop after drop night after night without a pack to encourage they leave the truck? Is Boone in the majority? I doubt it but you’d know quicker.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-13-2017 04:18 PM:

Adam, I breed for balance. I breed for dogs that can win comp hunts but are fun to pleasure hunt. I want one to hunt but I don't want one that leaves the country. I breed for one that will get treed but have a coon when they do. I breed for independence but I don't want one that refuses to tree with another dog. I breed for loud mouth open track dogs. I breed for brains. I don't want a wild crazy or stupid dog. As you can see, there are many traits to consider. Maybe that is why it is so hard to get a good one. I evaluate what I have in each individual dog and what I think he/she could use and make a decision based on that. And I breed for what I like whether I am in the majority or minority, I don't care.

Posted by Adam Wingler on 11-13-2017 04:26 PM:

Well that sounds much better. But 8 out of 10 lack drive, despite the color. So the balance is off balance somewhere.

Posted by Have One Reds on 11-13-2017 04:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
You can breed for it but who wants to? That is the question.

I think most people would breed for it if it fits the definition given by RedScorpion, above...But I agree that not many people would like high drive if it sacrifices brains and other important abilities. I agree that not many people would want it if the dog is just running to run and not looking for coon. I think most of us breed for it if it means the dog leaves your feet on a dead run or a fast pace looking for a coon track. I'll take that dog.

But L. Richard has a good point. I think the answer is that most people are breeding for and would like a high drive dog if it uses its head and is looking for a coon. But if most are breeding for it, why is it still pretty hard to find?

Who wants to go to a night hunt and have their dog standing in their light all night? On the other hand, who wants a dog that you are constantly trying to catch up to and you know it passed up many coon to get there? There has to be a balance there somewhere. How hard is it to breed for balance?

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Posted by L.Richard on 11-13-2017 04:55 PM:

Food for thought

I don't think that any one has suggested that if a hound has a lot of drive.....that it runs by coon, or makes blank tree`s.For some reason those got added to the original question.If it can be bred for...who in this breed is doing so, and who has it as we speak?

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517-605-3199

Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-13-2017 06:23 PM:

Just like every trait, I get it here and there but not everywhere. I get some that leave the country and some that don't. Is that balance? It is almost impossible to get all pups with drive unless you breed for wild crazy leave the country pups and then your culls still hunt pretty deep. Mr. Richard, sorry but we are just filling up the empty space while we wait for someone to actually answer that they are breeding for drive and getting it.

Posted by jdgher on 11-14-2017 02:25 AM:

High Drive

Do you have more trouble with High Drive dogs running off game? Is that a trade off? Are they harder to brake, because they are so determined and driven? If you get them broke, or almost broke are they better for competition hunts?
Which lines tend to be naturally straight or easy to brake, yet have High Drive. Does that even exist?

Hope you don't mind me asking so many questions, Richard.

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Posted by jdgher on 11-14-2017 02:32 AM:

Waiting

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Just like every trait, I get it here and there but not everywhere. I get some that leave the country and some that don't. Is that balance? It is almost impossible to get all pups with drive unless you breed for wild crazy leave the country pups and then your culls still hunt pretty deep. Mr. Richard, sorry but we are just filling up the empty space while we wait for someone to actually answer that they are breeding for drive and getting it.

Richard Lambert. You might be waiting a long time. The original thread says. Quote: " If you have not had that problem and have found the answers, this thread is not for you". :0

Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-14-2017 01:27 PM:

Re: High Drive

quote:
Originally posted by jdgher
Which lines tend to be naturally straight or easy to brake, yet have High Drive. Does that even exist?

Now that is one of the problems and where that "balance" thing comes in. Breeding for drive is not that simple. Breeding for any one trait means that you have to give up on another trait. A very smart man once said "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". It doesn't look like anyone is "breeding for drive". Either that or they are keeping it a secret.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-14-2017 01:39 PM:

Darrin, the Steve-O X Chilli females that I had all had plenty of hunt. Did y'all breed for that or did it just happen? Did Jeff breed Jesse to a stud to get more drive? Jared and I bought a Steve-O X Chilli female just to breed her to Boone to get pups with hunt and independence. You should have some answers not questions.

Posted by Crazy Luke on 11-14-2017 02:00 PM:

Richard

You are mixing up the laws of billiards (pool) with coon dog breeding...

Posted by Adam Wingler on 11-14-2017 02:13 PM:

Independence is apparently easier to get than drive. I assume part of the culprit is nearly ALL serious coonhound breeders don’t live in the armpit of the Coonhunting world (anywhere near the 2017 world hunt or huge woods or my zipcode). With plenty of coon who really needs tons of drive. Just an observation.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-14-2017 03:16 PM:

Mark, that is the Lambert Law of Relative Coonhound Breeding. But it might pertain to pool also.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 11-14-2017 08:23 PM:

Re: Re: High Drive

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Now that is one of the problems and where that "balance" thing comes in. Breeding for drive is not that simple. Breeding for any one trait means that you have to give up on another trait. A very smart man once said "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". It doesn't look like anyone is "breeding for drive". Either that or they are keeping it a secret.

Can you expand a little more on your theory that "breeding for any one trait means you have to give up on another trait" ?

Posted by L.Richard on 11-14-2017 08:51 PM:

Drive? Balance ?

Not always...... But, most of the time, the term balanced, when used in a conversation about coonhounds, can be a term, that some times, equals... Common.

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