UKC Forums - Trouble with two separate Females having pups this week

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Posted by Junior Watson on 04-30-2019 03:31 AM:

Trouble with two separate Females having pups this week

I have had some bad luck this week. I had two separate females due to have pups this week. Both had trouble and had to be taken to the vet to have c-sections. The first one had 2 pups, then had 2 that were dead and two days later started acting badly. Took her to the vet and had to do emergency surgery on her and had one pup left in her that was deteriorating. She was 7 years old and bred to a different male than my other female. The 2nd one had one pup yesterday morning, then came home from church and she hadn't had any more. I checked on her later and her back end was swelled. When I examined her I felt a puppies head. I then helped her deliver it and it was born dead. When I got up this morning she hadn't had any more pups so I took her to the vet and she had one bigger than normal pups hung. The x rays showed the pup's neck was broken from her trying to deliver it. So she had to have a c section. So considering my luck here I am trying to find a reason why this has happened with both my females??? The only explanation from the vet is that she thought I shouldn't have bred the females considering their age??? Has anyone else had an experience like this? Any advice would greatly be appreciated. Thanks.

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Posted by jdgher on 04-30-2019 03:49 AM:

I don't know

I don't know, this is unusual though.
1. Are the females close related? Since different males were used, I wonder if it comes from the female side.
2. How much exercise did they have during pregnancy? Some say hunt them while pregnant, makes better pups. Some say don't hunt them just get them some exercise.
3. Were these females normal weight?
I'm no expert on this stuff, just wondering what could have caused this.
Sorry to hear you had this bad luck.

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Posted by joey on 04-30-2019 05:00 AM:

Had they had a litter before?

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Posted by Mark V. on 04-30-2019 11:22 AM:

Were they both still being hunted? I just had 7pups off a female that is 9 with know problems but things can happen at any time to any one good luck JR.

Posted by Reuben on 04-30-2019 11:32 AM:

I am sorry about your losses...could it be the dog food?

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Posted by hat creek mac on 04-30-2019 02:15 PM:

Just my guess...

1. Most folks feed higher protein dog feed than they did years ago. I cut my females' feed back the last few weeks to prevent pups that are too big. I saw a bunch of heifers fed too much cotton seed meal one time while they were heavy bred and they pulled calves forever. It is possible to grow babies too fast while they are inside of their mother.

2. If at all possible, have older females hunted up and in shape when you breed them. I bought an old female once that had lost 2 litters of pups in a row. She was a top female in her day. Her owner had passed away and his wife had kept the female and tried raising pups. After 2 failures, she contacted me and sold me the dog. I hunted her hard for several months and got her in shape. When she came back in, I bred her to my Phydeaux dog and raised a big litter. Being in shape helps when you are breeding an older female.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 04-30-2019 02:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by hat creek mac
Just my guess... Being in shape helps when you are breeding an older female.

I agree...

Posted by Autumn Clements on 04-30-2019 09:57 PM:

Have they had litters before? Are they in shape(did you excercise them while they were pregnant?)?

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Posted by POTOMAC on 05-01-2019 12:32 AM:

Some are good females and mothers some aren't I have raised 7-8 litters in last 10 years had to have csec on two , oxytocin on hand when you see trouble staring could have saved you a lot of money maybe not But I learned a lot of do and donts , expensive lessons

Posted by Littletown on 05-01-2019 01:58 AM:

I have had emergency C-sections in dogs who were young (not quite 3 years old), and in dogs who were "in their prime". I have had OLDER dogs deliver live litters by themselves with no problems. Some times, odd things happen, and problems occur as a result.

My very first litter from a 3 year old dog who had pregnancy X-rays showing 3 puppies, properly-positioned and normal sized, ended up in a near-disaster. At 3:30 am (during an ice storm in Michigan), she was in hard labor but no puppies. I have learned to always supervise my females, so I know right away when there is trouble starting. This female was rushed to the vet, a C-section was done, and surprise.....the previous X-ray did not show up the 2 Mummies, and their cords had become tangled around the 3 live puppies' cords, and this created a "Log-jam", so no one could get out. Had I waited another 30 minutes, I would have lost ALL puppies AND the mother (this, according to the Emergency vet). The 3 puppies survived, but I never bred the mother again.

My second litter was also a real "near-disaster", and over the years of breeding dogs, I have had MANY disasters that were all different from one another. Some litters were saved, and some were not. Never did I leave a female alone once she started labor; even so, I still had "disasters". Some folks leave their dogs alone to whelp and never have any issues. Mostly, I wanted to watch and help out if necessary. There were times when I had to turn puppies (inside the mother), and times when I had to help her with a "stubborn" pup that just would not come out. We got them out, & everyone did just fine. Over the years, you will lose your share of puppies, even when you do nothing wrong. Sometimes, they have occult infections and die before you know they need help. I learned that the hard way, too.

One thing I learned to do was to keep a notebook with the following info: sire, dam, date & time labor started, and then I just documented EVERYTHING that happened during the labor & delivery. When all pups were born, I got their weights (important to know, because weight loss is often the first sign of puppy problems). I am very glad that I decided to keep the "birth journal", because I have referred back to it on many occasions, and it has helped me in deciding whether or not to head to the emergency vet, since these dogs always seem to whelp in the middle of the night, or on a weekend when no vets are open...

I am very sorry for your bad luck. Dead puppies can be a real source of trouble, and can quickly cause serious infection in both the mother and the rest of the litter. There are a variety of reasons as to why puppies die prior to birth. I don't think your 7 year old female was too old. The reproductive specialist vet told me that it should be no problem for a dog to give birth even up to 9 years of age. He said the main thing is that we get them bred by the age of 4 years. He said that even if we breed once at 4 years, then we don't breed them again until age 9 years, it should still not be a problem because "the uterus was primed when we bred the dog at age 4". If they have never been bred, and we suddenly decide to breed them when they are older, the vet said that it could still work out, but it would be a "higher risk" for the mother, as her uterus would be "more prone to rupture" if she had never had puppies before.

In both cases of your dogs, the mothers each gave birth to one or more live puppies. The problems started after that.

It is possible that if they were bred again, things might go right the next time - or, you could have something entirely different go wrong.

I have always given dogs 2 chances when it comes to having pups. If the dog has problems with the first litter but her second litter is normal, that's no problem. However, if she has the SAME problems giving birth to her second litter - that's a female I don't breed again.

Hope this has been helpful to you.

Posted by Littletown on 05-01-2019 02:06 AM:

My post may be too large....part of a paragraph has been cut off. But when I refresh my screen, the cut-off part appears, but another part of a sentence or paragraph then disappears.

Not sure why this is happening, but sorry about that !!

Posted by kordog on 05-01-2019 11:53 AM:

sometimes things just go wrong ,but the trick is to stack odds in your favor by having your females in top shape ,and fed quality food,water with good bedding, in a stress free environment.they can surely have pups under less than ideal conditions.i have to totally agree that the females conditioning is at the top especially the older she is.

Posted by Richard Edinger on 05-01-2019 04:13 PM:

And people wonder why pups cost so much.

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Posted by Junior Watson on 05-02-2019 06:55 PM:

Thanks for so many replies!!!!!!

jdgher,
1.The females were not related at all.
2. One female was running loose around my house and the other had been hunted some but not as much as I would when she wasn't pregnant.
3. Females were normal weight not overweight

joey,
One had a litter before and the other was the first time.

MarkV,
One was some and the other was running loose around my house.

Reuben,
Thank you. I thought about the dog food and asked my vet and she told me definitely not. I feed Sportmix high protein.

Hat creek mac,
1. You may be on to something however I have always handled my females this way.
2. One female was in great shape and the other in decent but not top shape. Both females were hunting females not brood.

Autumn Clements,
One had a litter and one hadn't.
One female was running loose around my house and the other had been hunted some but not as much as I would when she wasn't pregnant.
Females were normal weight not overweight

Potomac,
I haven't had experience with oxytocin. Very expensive plus my pups.

Littletown,
Thank you for the info!!! I really like the idea of the journal. I have bred a lot of females and not had but one c section....

kordog,
I couldn't agree more and all these things were taken care of.

Richard,
I couldn't agree more!

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 05-02-2019 11:46 PM:

Low calcium levels can lead to ineffective contractions during delivery. I always recommend giving crushed Tums at the start and during delivery. It can also lead to problems during whelping. Sometimes it's the simple solutions that prevent major problems.

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Posted by Junior Watson on 05-03-2019 04:06 PM:

Reply

Redneck Mafia,

Thank you for the help.

Posted by jdgher on 05-03-2019 06:20 PM:

Re: Thanks for so many replies!!!!!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Junior Watson
[B]

Potomac,
I haven't had experience with oxytocin. Very expensive plus my pups.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good thread, good communication, seems everything I can think of now has been brought up. Here's a little help.
Oxytocin is available online for less than 20$ a bottle. I know of it being used a few times to aid whelping with no known side effects.

Posted by Mark V. on 05-03-2019 11:09 PM:

I also give the gyp herbal raspberry tea mixed with can food the month before delivery . But sometimes things just happen Sorry JR.

Posted by coyoterunner on 05-05-2019 12:07 PM:

anybody on here ever bred a gyp again after she had birthing troubles?? did she have trouble again or whelp with no problems..i have a gyp that had 4 pups then the 5th was sideways. vet got it out, but she had 3 dead ones that came out after...vet advised againist breeding her again..just wondering if that was just bad luck or would happen again..thks

Posted by coyoterunner on 05-11-2019 09:38 AM:

btt

Posted by Littletown on 05-12-2019 06:30 AM:

Coyote runner: I have had several dogs (over the years) who had whelping difficulties with one litter, then went on to have NO trouble whelping successive litters.

I had one female who had a normal litter for her first, then needed an emergency C-section for her second litter (because the first puppy was quite large, and blocked the others), and my vet told me that he was careful how he did the surgery & sutures so that she would be able to have another litter if I wanted her to. A couple of years later, she did have another litter - completely normal whelping, beautiful puppies.

Just because a pup was turned in the birth canal doesn't mean that the female was the source of the problem. Puppies that block the birth canal often have dead pups coming behind them - but not always. There are so many things that can go wrong during birth, it's a miracle that any puppies make it out alive and continue to thrive up to adulthood !!

If you are hoping to breed her again, I would do it, and not worry.

Posted by POTOMAC on 05-15-2019 09:10 PM:

Oxytocin is very inexpensive and also as noted I had one female that I fed up thinking I was helping her and pups were to big for her to pass , since I feed about normal rations until last two week then throw the puppy chow and ultra 24 to them and haven't had any issues but the oxytocin will save you if she has one that is larger and wears hers
Ed out delivering that one Good luck

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