UKC Forums - “Natural” vs “Man Made” Coondog

Pages (5): « 1 2 [3] 4 5 »
Show all 113 posts from this thread on one page

UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- “Natural” vs “Man Made” Coondog (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928519791)

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 07-10-2019 03:03 PM:

Re: Re: "It" factor......

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Most wouldn't recognize it if it snuck up and bit them they give up on pups full of fire or ruin them with a shocker at a young age.

I will also add that some miss the peak opportunities, pups that have every tool + some and the brains to go with it but without the handler with drive and brains to match. They had it but missed it.
I have a good group of pups right now all young under 6 months all above average even at this age I know all are going to work. Some may make top from here it will depend upon the environment they end up at and the smarts of their future owner, some may end up and be the IT. But there is this one, the youngest in the group only 10 weeks old and there is something about him. He's never ran a track and never treed a thing but just something, time will tell.
I've seen IT before, I've seen it ruined, I've seen it never be given the opportunity it deserved, I've seen what it can do in the right patience hands because he has seen IT too.
There is nothing worse than seeing it in a young pup that was started here and then contacting the owners in a few months to see how it is doing only to find out the pup hasn't left the pen. Second worse is to talk to them and they have been "working" on them with a shocker for 14 different reasons at the same time and a young age. You can do nothing but shake your head because some aren't smart enough to recognize what they have and you know another one bit the dust.

__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH(5) HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
2021 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2022 PKC WORLD CHAMPION, 2022 MO PKC STATE LEADER PRO SPORT TRUCK WINNER

RIP
*GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA PKC HALL OF FAME REPRODUCER INDUCTED 2022
*GRNITECH CH PKC SILVER CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2020 MO PKC STATE LEADER

Posted by Creason on 07-10-2019 05:09 PM:

I would say there’s a lot of truth to that. Leads me back to my statement if dog could cull handlers, no doubt I would have been culled by a few. Even at 54, I enjoy sitting and gleaning from the real “dog men” that I know, who can recognize the “it” factor and bring it out.

Posted by Creason on 07-10-2019 05:09 PM:

Wow, I didn’t know I could double post and repeat myself, I must have the “it” factor or that was just man made stupid.

Posted by Kler Kry on 07-10-2019 07:28 PM:

Re: "It" factor......

quote:
Originally posted by DL NH
Please share more about the "It" factor. I've been hunting hounds for a long time and still haven't learned it all, so please give some specifics. Sure others would benefit as well.

Dogs with IT do not require repetitive experiences to learn. One experience is remembered as well as the average dog does with 10 repetitive experiences.
The smarter the dog is the less the handler or owner can screw up as they don't always forgive and forget. The dog with IT has more common sense than most people. Ken Risley

Posted by Mike Van Dusen on 07-11-2019 12:49 AM:

Re: "It" factor......

quote:
Originally posted by DL NH
Please share more about the "It" factor. I've been hunting hounds for a long time and still haven't learned it all, so please give some specifics. Sure others would benefit as well.

Sorry I am so late to respond,I had to do that 4 letter word today,WORK!

My experience with the 'it factor" IS ..Take a pup out after preparing them for a night in the woods and they just know a whole lot and fall right in there and tree real live racoon!
Everytime you take them they just blow your socks off with their god given ability and you can just see that natural talent in them come bubbling out,and you think WOW !!!and to me their is no better feeling than seeing that pup just become a racoon treeing machine!
If you have ever witnessed this,you know what I am getting at,if you haven't...I hope for your sake,someday you will,but beware,it will ruin you if you don't watch.....

I have been lucky enough to have had this happen several times,1 time I had a male pup,showed him a cage coon,me and a buddy took it out and released it to this male pup( he was 6 months old) and 2 older female pups,coon went up under the truck,we had a heck of a time,pup got bit and he got permanently pissed off at that racoon!
The next night we went hunting and I had my Slim dog and that 6 month old pup,Slim was trailing a racoon,when all of a sudden a huge dying bawl let out to my left,and he turned it over to a machine gun chop,I went to him and that pup had found a real live racoon!Slim went on and treed his racoon further in the woods and that pup was telling the world that he found 1 too.
From that night on that pup was treeing his own coon,and I could not wait till it got dark,when he was 15 months old,and he was a dandy by then,he got hit by a car and was busted up too bad,and I had to put him down!
I called him Ringo,his littermate sister is the Sara dog that is the mother of Daniel Wilson's Fred Bear (Hank) dog.

__________________
"Some dogs will learn to tree a coon, others were born to!

"Coma Power"
"It's in the blood"
HOME- 219-326-7907
CELL-219-575-0067

Posted by Reuben on 07-11-2019 03:48 AM:

The great ones are exciting to watch even as young pups...

I hear some people say; if it ain’t broke don’t fix it...

I also hear some people say; you’ve got to feed them lots of tracks to make a dog...

I never have liked working for people with that “if it ain’t broke” mentality...IMO that saying says it all...

The other one...you have to feed a lot of tracks to make a hunting dog...i totally disagree with this mentality as well...if it is looking like I will need to feed lots of tracks I will cull pretty quick...on average to have good dogs this is how it needs to be done...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Posted by Josh Michaelis on 07-11-2019 04:31 AM:

Where all these natural......or even man made dogs y'all keep talking about?

Every time I go to a hunt I draw three other common plugs just like mine.

__________________
YouTube.com/@canestreammedia
www.joydogfood.com
Fueled by Joy Podcast

Posted by DL NH on 07-11-2019 11:37 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
The other one...you have to feed a lot of tracks to make a hunting dog...i totally disagree with this mentality as well...if it is looking like I will need to feed lots of tracks I will cull pretty quick...on average to have good dogs this is how it needs to be done...

I think the point here Reuben is that even those born naturals keep getting better the more they get hunted. Just like a natural born human athlete "Hones" their inherited abilities as a player. My experience with hounds is the good ones keep getting better with age up to about 5-6 years old. They begin to level off at about 5 and then about 8 you begin to see a slow decline, mostly physical until about 10 then the mental stuff begins to show on many older hounds as well. The really good ones always die to soon!!

__________________
Dan

Posted by Reuben on 07-11-2019 05:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by DL NH
I think the point here Reuben is that even those born naturals keep getting better the more they get hunted. Just like a natural born human athlete "Hones" their inherited abilities as a player. My experience with hounds is the good ones keep getting better with age up to about 5-6 years old. They begin to level off at about 5 and then about 8 you begin to see a slow decline, mostly physical until about 10 then the mental stuff begins to show on many older hounds as well. The really good ones always die to soon!!

Dan, I reckon I should have explained myself...you are 100 percent right in what you are saying...

I was looking at it from another angle...if the pup doesn’t meet my requirements the first couple of times in the woods I will not waste much time in that pup...once I decide he is worth keeping then it is time I to feed them tracks...sometimes there has to be exceptions to the rules out of necessity but it is not forgotten...the dog stands a good chance of replacement at some time and for sure won’t be bred...

Feeding tracks to a pup I am talking about will make improvements in said pup be chances are he will never be the dog I will be happy with or even want to keep...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Posted by HOBO on 07-11-2019 06:06 PM:

I haven’t read all of the replies on this thread but I’ll give my take on natural ability vs man made.

To me natural ability is when you take a young hound to the woods and on their second or third trip to the woods they strike on the leash and none of the old dogs do. You turn loose and the pup runs with the older dogs and trees in front of them.
Natural ability is when you have a two year old dog that you’ve never messed with and the second time you take it to the woods it opens on track and tries to tree some. None of that can be taught no matter how hard you try.

Man made to me is when you have to keep working a dog with caged coon to get it to bark at one or have to keep turning coins loose for it before it ever wants to try and run and tree one.

They are all man made to a certain degree because if WE don’t do our part and give them the ability to use their given talents they will never show what they are capable of doing.

I’ll take one with natural ability over anything any day of the week.

__________________
Swampmusic Kennel
Remembering Our Past......
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.Dohoney's Lobo
Ch.Swampmusic Lil Bit Sassy
Ch.Swampmusic Misty Shadow
Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Boone
Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Pride
But Looking To The Future...

Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Big Hoss

Dennis Robinson
Cell 540-295-3892

Posted by Reuben on 07-11-2019 08:25 PM:

Hobo...you said it exactly how I see it...in the hog hunting world I can sometimes make an exception for a decent dog but as I said earlier it will get replaced... I believe a spot in my yard is too valuable for that space to be taken by a dog that doesn’t meet my standards...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Posted by Creason on 07-11-2019 08:51 PM:

So how many potentials do we work our way through before we find Mrs. or Mr. Natural?

Posted by HOBO on 07-11-2019 10:16 PM:

You have to weed through all of the BS people write and find the person that tends to always have the naturals. Don't believe what you read on the internet or in some fancy ad.

Posted by yadkintar on 07-11-2019 10:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
You have to weed through all of the BS people write and find the person that tends to always have the naturals. Don't believe what you read on the internet or in some fancy ad.

There are naturals that come along that make top shelf coondogs those are very few and far between! Just because one goes to running around barking after the other dogs and treeing on every tree the others do don’t mean it’s a natural. I can dribble and hit a free throw once in a while but it don’t mean I am a natural basketball player.

Tar

Posted by DL NH on 07-11-2019 11:58 PM:

I spent a few to many years looking for the "naturals" all the time and came to the conclusion that you'll go through a lot of dogs and some of the ones you'll discard into someone else's hands, end up making decent hounds in the hands of a bit more patient individual.

I'm not going to keep worthless dogs but if I've got hounds I can go to the woods with that produce game and are enjoyable at home as well as in the woods I'll keep them. Some people enjoy turning over hounds all the time in that constant search for a better one. I don't. If the special ones were plentiful they wouldn't be special.

__________________
Dan

Posted by HOBO on 07-12-2019 12:01 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
There are naturals that come along that make top shelf coondogs those are very few and far between! Just because one goes to running around barking after the other dogs and treeing on every tree the others do don’t mean it’s a natural. I can dribble and hit a free throw once in a while but it don’t mean I am a natural basketball player.

Tar

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You still don't get it!

Posted by yadkintar on 07-12-2019 12:11 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You still don't get it!

Well I am not to old or set in my ways to learn I love to learn. Teach me !

Tar

Posted by Reuben on 07-12-2019 01:44 AM:

It takes time to develop a great bloodline line but when it is set you can have top shelf pups in every litter and a high percentage of pups will make good dogs...but one must breed the very best from within the family...

Once we have three or four generations of these dogs that originally came from good dogs then you won’t be a nay sayer...

When a breeder is chasing every bloodline and breeding to it thinking he is improving his dogs and that breeder more than likely will be in the nay sayers group...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Posted by yadkintar on 07-12-2019 01:58 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
It takes time to develop a great bloodline line but when it is set you can have top shelf pups in every litter and a high percentage of pups will make good dogs...but one must breed the very best from within the family...

Once we have three or four generations of these dogs that originally came from good dogs then you won’t be a nay sayer...

When a breeder is chasing every bloodline and breeding to it thinking he is improving his dogs and that breeder more than likely will be in the nay sayers group...

Ruben in the coon hound world anybody that’s says you breed coondog to coondog and get coondogs is wrong there is no proven cross I don’t care how many generations you got behind them. That natural freak of nature is usually once in a breeders lifetime coonhounds are a complex animal and it takes all traits stacked in the right direction.

I have hog hunted most cast till they catch scent usually the hogs are not that far away and when jumped they run on sight to catch if it’s still like it was when I grew up where you are it did not take much of a talented dog to catch hogs they were thick. I got a freind that hog hunts down there I went to school with we hog hunted together he lives in Manvel tx his name is Larry Kettler.

Tar

Posted by HOBO on 07-12-2019 02:15 AM:

There you have IT.. The GREAT TAR has spoken.....

The End

Posted by yadkintar on 07-12-2019 02:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
There you have IT.. The GREAT TAR has spoken.....

The End

Well I gave you the chance to tell me. I really expected you to tell me I was wrong this ain’t no fun !!

Tar

Posted by HOBO on 07-12-2019 02:27 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Well I gave you the chance to tell me. I really expected you to tell me I was wrong this ain’t no fun !!

Tar

No one can tell you anything. You KNOW it ALL...

Posted by yadkintar on 07-12-2019 02:31 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
No one can tell you anything. You KNOW it ALL...

Put your spin on it I am just waiting on dark. My dogs have several generations of night hunt titles to back up what I preach. Let er rip explain it instead of knocking !

Tar

Posted by Reuben on 07-12-2019 03:12 AM:

Well Yatkintar...the only difference in a great hog dog is the hog dog does not need to be proven as a tree dog...they cast out quick and strike a track as quickly as any coondog would a coon track and drift the track to find the hot end quickly...sometimes in the real thick briars or cut overs...the hogs like the thickest woods to run in and sometimes will get in a 5 or ten acre briar patch that not even a 4 wheeler can go through...and the hog can run in front of the dogs for many hours...anywhere from 4 to 8 hrs or more...smart hogs will run through some shoats and even a herd of cows... hogdogs are like coondogs...there are many hog dogs that I wouldn’t feed just as I am sure there are many coon dogs you wouldn’t feed...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Posted by yadkintar on 07-12-2019 05:00 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
Well Yatkintar...the only difference in a great hog dog is the hog dog does not need to be proven as a tree dog...they cast out quick and strike a track as quickly as any coondog would a coon track and drift the track to find the hot end quickly...sometimes in the real thick briars or cut overs...the hogs like the thickest woods to run in and sometimes will get in a 5 or ten acre briar patch that not even a 4 wheeler can go through...and the hog can run in front of the dogs for many hours...anywhere from 4 to 8 hrs or more...smart hogs will run through some shoats and even a herd of cows... hogdogs are like coondogs...there are many hog dogs that I wouldn’t feed just as I am sure there are many coon dogs you wouldn’t feed...

Reuben that was a good response and I learned from it and you are very correct except for when down home you get in those palmetto bushes that look like a big fan and you hear hogs and smell hogs and they are running all around you and you can’t see them make man climb a tree lol.

Tar

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:47 PM.

Pages (5): « 1 2 [3] 4 5 »
Show all 113 posts from this thread on one page