UKC Forums - The " New" Competitive Edge

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-- The " New" Competitive Edge (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928524327)

Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-19-2019 02:26 AM:

Corey, I turned my goes too deep dog loose tonight but I tricked her. I cut her into a big woods but there is a road 1 mile on the other side. She struck at 800 yds and treed at .8 miles. The Garmin said that she traveled 1.5 miles. I drove around and walked 200 yds to her. But you can't do that on a comp hunt.

Posted by DL NH on 11-19-2019 02:45 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
I guess I got the best of both worlds mine tree them as they come to them.

Tar

..........and ain't that the way it's suppose to be??? I absolutely love a dog that will make fools out of those dogs that kick gravel in your face running out in a straight line for a half mile before they start to actually hunt.

__________________
Dan

Posted by Preacher Tom on 11-19-2019 02:50 AM:

Well turned mine loose tonight in some rough stuff, lots of water and briars really thick. Treed 3 singles and were never over 400 yards and done by 8:07 but they like to have killed me trying to get thru that stuff. Treed 350 from me and I had to cross three creeks and crawl thru briars but they had him. This is on public hunting.

__________________
Tom Wood

Posted by Team Mafia 2 on 11-19-2019 03:16 AM:

I have hunted a bunch under the no Leash lock rule and the same exact style of dogs won every major event they have. You guys are miss understanding the “NO LEASH LOCK” you will still be leash locked if you score out of order and you will still be leash locked running the 8. You won’t see any change in the dogs that are winning.

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Posted by DL NH on 11-19-2019 03:18 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
My definition is one that hunts in a circle or actually "hunts" the woods you put them in and doesn't straight line into the next county. They will also come back and check in If they can't find a track. Time or distance doesn't have that much to do with it.

There are some "close hunting" dogs that actually just have a very good nose and know how to hunt. They always seem to get struck at less than 400 yds so their owner thinks that they are a close hunter. But if they dont get struck, they keep going until they do.

And there are many variations of a close hunter but one that only goes 50-200 yds, comes back and stands beside you is a non-hunting dog.

Well said and the 1st 2 scenarios are exactly the type of coon hounds I enjoy hunting with. The way a hound hunts to some degree should be shaped by the country they are dropped in.

__________________
Dan

Posted by shadinc on 11-19-2019 03:40 AM:

It seems that a lot of people believe that all deep hunting dogs can't or won't tree a coon close to where he's turned out. I can't believe these big winning dogs only tree coons a mile away. I would like to hear from some hunters that have placed in big hunts with deep hunting dogs. Do your dogs ever tree a close coon?

__________________
Donald Bergeron

Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-19-2019 03:51 AM:

Oh my goodness Dalton, are you saying that the new no leash lock rule won't change things or make any difference?

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 11-19-2019 04:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Oh my goodness Dalton, are you saying that the new no leash lock rule won't change things or make any difference?

Of course it will the dogs treeing coons will get to be turned loose instead of leading around waiting time that could be spent hunting. But he is right in one respect the dogs that win under it are quite often the ones winning elsewhere. Bottom line you've got to have coons to win.

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Posted by Chuck Allen on 11-19-2019 08:54 AM:

I am pretty sure everyone is right in some aspect , but it varies on where one hunts or what type dog you like , I can't speak for everyone but of those on here who I have drawn in competition hunts or those I have pleasure hunted with , the most important thing is to have a good time , some nights are going to be bad and some are going to be good. A hot nose dogs or a dog that will only mess with warm to medium tracks , in some cases or areas will have to cover some ground fast , and a Cold nose dog that will take and move those old rough tracks maybe not so much. Has for me if they go 400- 600 and come back , I am ok with moving some place else. Above all else I want dogs that handle , that I call call off of track or tree. Without resorting to extremes.

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Posted by Corey Gruver on 11-19-2019 01:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Corey, I turned my goes too deep dog loose tonight but I tricked her. I cut her into a big woods but there is a road 1 mile on the other side. She struck at 800 yds and treed at .8 miles. The Garmin said that she traveled 1.5 miles. I drove around and walked 200 yds to her. But you can't do that on a comp hunt.

By the sounds of it, she would be a close hunting dog if you knew which side of the block to turn her loose on to begin with

__________________
Corey Gruver
Greenville, PA
(724) 456-6813

Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 11-19-2019 01:39 PM:

"When will we see the competition world start breeding for the "new" competitive edge?"

This issue we be handled like all the other issues for the past 60 years. When they start winning They will start winning when the rules give their style the advantage.

Since the majority of the guys responding to this post appear to be pleasure hunters. That means they look at the coon hound world through a different set of glasses.

But the truth is. Our dogs today are a product of winning hounds over the years. The winning hounds are a product of the coon hound rules.

When? Not until we start hunting under specific rules that gives the type hound Corey mentioned an advantage. Those type of hounds then will win and the winners will be bred to. Then 50 years from now. Everyone will be on this board trying to figure out how we got to the point of close hunting hounds. Same way we got to the hounds we have today. 50 years of breeding winners.

Here is another thing we are missing. I don't see to many young people complaining about the dogs we are hunting today. Most of the complaints are coming from older people not able to follow these hounds. Yes that causes mental anguish. We experience that mental anguish on this board everyday. Trying to turn back the clock and adjust rules and dogs style to allow a wore out coon hunter to stay in the game. You would think older mature people would have the sense to welcome the youth, their ways and their dogs. Without trying to turn the coon hound hunts around to suit an old broken down man and make the playing field equal to someone with a 20 year old body.
Now if your old and don't like where our dogs are today. Look in the mirror. Your part of the group that put them there.

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Posted by yadkintar on 11-19-2019 01:49 PM:

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
"When will we see the competition world start breeding for the "new" competitive edge?"

This issue we be handled like all the other issues for the past 60 years. When they start winning They will start winning when the rules give their style the advantage.

Since the majority of the guys responding to this post appear to be pleasure hunters. That means they look at the coon hound world through a different set of glasses.

But the truth is. Our dogs today are a product of winning hounds over the years. The winning hounds are a product of the coon hound rules.

When? Not until we start hunting under specific rules that gives the type hound Corey mentioned an advantage. Those type of hounds then will win and the winners will be bred to. Then 50 years from now. Everyone will be on this board trying to figure out how we got to the point of close hunting hounds. Same way we got to the hounds we have today. 50 years of breeding winners.

Here is another thing we are missing. I don't see to many young people complaining about the dogs we are hunting today. Most of the complaints are coming from older people not able to follow these hounds. Yes that causes mental anguish. We experience that mental anguish on this board everyday. Trying to turn back the clock and adjust rules and dogs style to allow a wore out coon hunter to stay in the game. You would think older mature people would have the sense to welcome the youth, their ways and their dogs. Without trying to turn the coon hound hunts around to suit an old broken down man and make the playing field equal to someone with a 20 year old body.
Now if your old and don't like where our dogs are today. Look in the mirror. Your part of the group that put them there.

Who says old men ain’t got a dog that will go a deep hunting ? We ain’t just so stupid to believe that them dogs are striking a coon off the snap every drop and every coon is a mile deep and you should be old enough to know better to Bruce. Nobody wanted to walk that death march on the leash after you just treed a coon. The next world hunt old babble deep and alone ain’t going to have it so good the vacuum cleaner is coming.

Tar

Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 11-19-2019 01:59 PM:

Tar, I wish you well with your dreams. The only thing that is going to happen to the UKC competition hunts is an influx of some of the more competitive handlers (of all ages) and more competitive dogs. Do you have a plan worked out to diminish those facts. Maybe some HTX hunts that if a dog hunts out over 400 yards the are scratched. Then only the winners of the HTX hunts can compete in the World Hunt.
Thats the only way your are going to put the brakes on the hounds of today. By making rules they can't win by. Then holding your breath until enough of the new generation winners are bred to make a difference. About 40-50 years.

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"Boss Lights"

Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-19-2019 02:31 PM:

Mr Conkey, do you think that Tarbaby can hold his breath for 50 years? He would have to be able to keep his mouth shut to do that.

Corey, I turned her loose again and she struck at 100 yds and treed at 300 yds. Maybe there is hope for her yet. I might start taking her again. But that might be her plan and she is just tricking me. She is pretty smart.

Posted by yadkintar on 11-19-2019 02:55 PM:

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Tar, I wish you well with your dreams. The only thing that is going to happen to the UKC competition hunts is an influx of some of the more competitive handlers (of all ages) and more competitive dogs. Do you have a plan worked out to diminish those facts. Maybe some HTX hunts that if a dog hunts out over 400 yards the are scratched. Then only the winners of the HTX hunts can compete in the World Hunt.
Thats the only way your are going to put the brakes on the hounds of today. By making rules they can't win by. Then holding your breath until enough of the new generation winners are bred to make a difference. About 40-50 years.

My dreaming is about a medium rare juicy steak nowadays. Bruce anybody knows the rules govern the style of dogs that show up to the big show. When dark destroyed them at the world hunt or even rock river gap expect more of that that type of dog is coming and the no leash lock promotes it.

Tar

Posted by T Felderman on 11-19-2019 03:03 PM:

Re: Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
The next world hunt old babble deep and alone ain’t going to have it so good the vacuum cleaner is coming.

Tar

So your saying that's how this years world hunt and the past ones were won? Interesting………………………..

Posted by yadkintar on 11-19-2019 03:09 PM:

Do you remember how the to dogs I stated won the world hunt ?

Tar

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 11-19-2019 03:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
It seems that a lot of people believe that all deep hunting dogs can't or won't tree a coon close to where he's turned out. I can't believe these big winning dogs only tree coons a mile away. I would like to hear from some hunters that have placed in big hunts with deep hunting dogs. Do your dogs ever tree a close coon?

The people who believe they only tree miles away or deep all the time are disillusioned. Most tree coons near or far but will go wherever they are.

Posted by Corey Gruver on 11-19-2019 03:34 PM:

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
"When will we see the competition world start breeding for the "new" competitive edge?"

This issue we be handled like all the other issues for the past 60 years. When they start winning They will start winning when the rules give their style the advantage.

Since the majority of the guys responding to this post appear to be pleasure hunters. That means they look at the coon hound world through a different set of glasses.

But the truth is. Our dogs today are a product of winning hounds over the years. The winning hounds are a product of the coon hound rules.

When? Not until we start hunting under specific rules that gives the type hound Corey mentioned an advantage. Those type of hounds then will win and the winners will be bred to. Then 50 years from now. Everyone will be on this board trying to figure out how we got to the point of close hunting hounds. Same way we got to the hounds we have today. 50 years of breeding winners.

Here is another thing we are missing. I don't see to many young people complaining about the dogs we are hunting today. Most of the complaints are coming from older people not able to follow these hounds. Yes that causes mental anguish. We experience that mental anguish on this board everyday. Trying to turn back the clock and adjust rules and dogs style to allow a wore out coon hunter to stay in the game. You would think older mature people would have the sense to welcome the youth, their ways and their dogs. Without trying to turn the coon hound hunts around to suit an old broken down man and make the playing field equal to someone with a 20 year old body.
Now if your old and don't like where our dogs are today. Look in the mirror. Your part of the group that put them there.

Bruce, very solid points brought up here. I think you are very accurate in your response and how it relates to the competition coonhunting world today. I think the absence of a viable fur market plays a big role with younger hunters and what kind of style of dog they like as well.

__________________
Corey Gruver
Greenville, PA
(724) 456-6813

Posted by Corey Gruver on 11-19-2019 03:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
It seems that a lot of people believe that all deep hunting dogs can't or won't tree a coon close to where he's turned out. I can't believe these big winning dogs only tree coons a mile away. I would like to hear from some hunters that have placed in big hunts with deep hunting dogs. Do your dogs ever tree a close coon?

Well said! That's a great point to bring to the discussion. There are a lot of dogs that can and will tree coon near and far, depending on the circumstances of the drop.

__________________
Corey Gruver
Greenville, PA
(724) 456-6813

Posted by Corey Gruver on 11-19-2019 03:40 PM:

The major point that I want to bring everyone back around to is this though. Are there "exclusively" close hunting dogs that are succeeding at a competitive level right now? Is anyone breeding for that type of dog right now?

As stated above, I believe there exist many dogs that will go where needed, regardless of distance. I also believe that there exist a small percentage of dogs that pop out of pocket just to do so or because they have been forced to do so by their owners/handlers.

What I'm curious about are just the opposite, are there close hunting dogs succeeding in competitive venues right now? Those true "deep and lonely" types can pull out the CW every now and again when the cards are in their favor, but is there the equivalent dog on the opposite side of the spectrum?

__________________
Corey Gruver
Greenville, PA
(724) 456-6813

Posted by yadkintar on 11-19-2019 03:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Corey Gruver
Well said! That's a great point to bring to the discussion. There are a lot of dogs that can and will tree coon near and far, depending on the circumstances of the drop.

Corey I love a good debate lol. Ok yes or no do you believe that in the major $$$ hunts keeping you on the leash is part of the stratgey?

Tar

Posted by Corey Gruver on 11-19-2019 03:45 PM:

Tar

I think that is a separate discussion all together lol

I just want to hear about close hunting dogs, peoples opinions on their success in competitive venues (if they have any), peoples experiences with true "close hunting" hounds, etc.

We can talk about the leash lock rule on a different thread, but to answer your question, I think that the best dog will win most of the time regardless

__________________
Corey Gruver
Greenville, PA
(724) 456-6813

Posted by yadkintar on 11-19-2019 03:57 PM:

Dark and gap were carrying low strikes but won because they treed coons behind and around dogs that were not getting treed often enough to keep them from it.

How dat !!

Tar

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 11-19-2019 03:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Corey Gruver
The major point that I want to bring everyone back around to is this though. Are there "exclusively" close hunting dogs that are succeeding at a competitive level right now? Is anyone breeding for that type of dog right now?

As stated above, I believe there exist many dogs that will go where needed, regardless of distance. I also believe that there exist a small percentage of dogs that pop out of pocket just to do so or because they have been forced to do so by their owners/handlers.

What I'm curious about are just the opposite, are there close hunting dogs succeeding in competitive venues right now? Those true "deep and lonely" types can pull out the CW every now and again when the cards are in their favor, but is there the equivalent dog on the opposite side of the spectrum?

The kicker is that the close dog cannot check in and when being recut for 2 hours they are likely to run out of coons to tree. A dog that only hunts out a few hundred yards is limited in it's sucess by it's hunting style, the terrain and coon population of the area. Some places deep is a necessity and some hunting locations not so much. We hunt a few where a dog may 800 yards before they ever get struck. A hunter is and will continue to be more successful hunting a dog that hunts until called in and trees coons wherever they are near or far. These dogs are not limited by they're hunting style.

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