UKC Forums - High scores and low scores.

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-- High scores and low scores. (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928532595)

Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 09-08-2020 12:53 PM:

High scores and low scores.

Does anyone else besides myself consider that when evaluating a dog in a competition hunt. The score really doesn't matter. The score only really matters if the rules are set up for a high score to win. Then things are manipulated by man to make sure high scores are accomplished. When men manipulate things. The dogs are not being evaluated. Only the mans skills to manipulate are. Let me be clear. I am not confusing cheating with manipulating. You can manipulate things to increase the number of coon you are hunting in and honestly score the dogs. It is just the manipulation of populated coon hunting spots only favor a few. That is why they don't impress me.

Don't we realize that every night is a different set of conditions thrown at our hounds. Yes they use their same ability to hunt and find coon. But if we hunt the same time every night which most do. The conditions are different throughout the month. I have been surprised by many a coonhunter on here that knows nothing about animals feed times that change every day. Why because it is all tied into the MOON CYCLE and that changes everyday.
Just because you have always read about coon being nocturnal, doesn't mean they are only nocturnal. Ever turn loose at dark and hit a cold trail? That coon moved before you got there. Along with the moon cycles we have temperature and humidity changes almost weekly in a lot of areas. We have rain cycles that also affect things.

I evaluate a hound on what he does when I turn him loose. If the conditions are not favorable he may struggle or not tree as many coon. When your evaluating a group of hounds in a cast it should be the same. Not who is in prime hunting and buckets compared to someone that drew a guide and took them to some land not favorable for coon to be. Yes the food the coon eat in everyones woods also cycles.

Beat the dogs you are hunting against and advance. You beat them in two simple ways. Not making a mistake the hunt rules say will give a dog minus. Treeing real live coon. Circle points and minus points don't help the cause. If you are placed in the cast that has the worse conditions possible. Which isn't your or the dogs fault after driving many hours to unknown area. Then the dog that worked to perfection in less that perfect conditions should advance. Even if there is no Plus points on the card.

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Posted by yadkintar on 09-08-2020 01:09 PM:

Ever notice when they need large scores to get in the final 4 they are easyier obtained. Been to aroura many times with what I thought was a top hound but the conditions didn’t low it to shine.

Tar

Posted by Richard Lambert on 09-08-2020 03:49 PM:

Shouldn't a truly top hound shine no matter what the conditions?
Some dogs look better in thick coons. Some dogs look better in thin coons. Some dogs are good tree dogs and some dogs are good track dogs. But won't a truly top hound look good no matter what the conditions are?

Posted by yadkintar on 09-08-2020 03:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Shouldn't a truly top hound shine no matter what the conditions?
Some dogs look better in thick coons. Some dogs look better in thin coons. Some dogs are good tree dogs and some dogs are good track dogs. But won't a truly top hound look good no matter what the conditions are?

I meant may as well hunted at the local football field so we could have caught them easy and set in the bleachers. Would have seen just as many coons too lol.

Tar

Posted by 2ol2hunt on 09-08-2020 04:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Shouldn't a truly top hound shine no matter what the conditions?
Some dogs look better in thick coons. Some dogs look better in thin coons. Some dogs are good tree dogs and some dogs are good track dogs. But won't a truly top hound look good no matter what the conditions are?

Some dogs are of the caliber you are talking about and they seem to tree coons where coons aren't supposed to be and after you have one of these dogs it sure is hard to be satisfied with dogs most folks call good dogs! When I started in 1973 everyone said how thin and scarce the coon were until I found one of these dogs and then like magic the coons seemed to be around in the same places we were hunting! But these types of dogs are FEW AND FAR BETWEEN!! That's the way I see it and my mind can't be changed Richard is right on the money.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 09-08-2020 04:58 PM:

I had one about 15 years ago.

Posted by Sgraves on 09-08-2020 05:51 PM:

Like Bruce , never cared for the high scoreing format. Buckets has always been the easy way out. Then again have seen where a cast of dogs struggled on buckets. A true hound should win anywhere it goes. Sometimes the situation at hand doesn’t allow that to happen.A CW is the only way to go. The dogs these days are just as competitive as the handlers. So whoever stays out of the most trouble an within the set rules should advance.

Posted by houndsound on 09-08-2020 06:09 PM:

I'd love to see a format where you simply hunt for a couple hours, then each handler can award two or three points to which ever dog they thought was the best hound over the last two hours.... You could only award one point to your own dog, must give your other points, or votes, point another dog. Have a guide or judge with one point to award. So 9 , or 13 points to be given out... 100% opinion based. No rules to manipulate. Even if I awarded my dog one of my points when he wasn't the best dog out there.... I"d have to give another point to the second best dog.... top dog probably end up being recognized... maybe not, but I think from all I hear about the point system- most agree that often the best dog does not get awarded then either.

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Posted by yadkintar on 09-08-2020 06:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Sgraves
Like Bruce , never cared for the high scoreing format. Buckets has always been the easy way out. Then again have seen where a cast of dogs struggled on buckets. A true hound should win anywhere it goes. Sometimes the situation at hand doesn’t allow that to happen.A CW is the only way to go. The dogs these days are just as competitive as the handlers. So whoever stays out of the most trouble an within the set rules should advance.

I don’t hunt on buckets and anytime I was on them in a hunt my dogs went crazy. But to be able to advance they would have to go to elimination style hunts with buy back in options.

Tar

Posted by Sgraves on 09-08-2020 07:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
I don’t hunt on buckets and anytime I was on them in a hunt my dogs went crazy. But to be able to advance they would have to go to elimination style hunts with buy back in options.

Tar

My dog makes me look like a fool on buckets too. The old heads with say so will not allow everything to go to single elimination. Pack dog mentality is still to strong in Ukc. They would rather run up a high score an stay together

Posted by Dave Richards on 09-08-2020 09:47 PM:

Hunts

Bruce, your post was true in every way. All any dog can ever do is compete against the dogs in THEIR cast. Scores mean absolutely nothing in determing the best dog of the entire HUNT. You will NEVER have a true WINNER without the elimination format. Elimination formats make everything equal for all dogs and ALL any dog needs is to beat the dogs in THEIR cast, and that's ALL any dog can ever do. Dave

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Posted by T Felderman on 09-09-2020 02:49 PM:

Re: High scores and low scores.

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Does anyone else besides myself consider that when evaluating a dog in a competition hunt.

Mr. Conkey, I somewhat pay attention to the scores of the consistent cast winners. I like to know who's putting coons on the card.

Posted by Toad Hill on 09-09-2020 03:25 PM:

Someone break it down for me ..type up a mock hunt with 50 dogs Elimination style format.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 09-09-2020 03:36 PM:

UKC World Championship Finals format, they hunt 100 dogs.

Posted by yadkintar on 09-09-2020 03:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toad Hill
Someone break it down for me ..type up a mock hunt with 50 dogs Elimination style format.

Well at 50 or 64 for the tournament of champions or 100 at the world hunt that would just be the finals at ukc all the elimination is done by other other clubs and other people before they get to the finals.

A true elimination style hunt Should be a qualification of wins or a $$$ amount then a week of eliminations plus buy back in options for all that met the qualification requirements.

Tar

Posted by Toad Hill on 09-09-2020 03:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Well at 50 or 64 for the tournament of champions or 100 at the world hunt that would just be the finals at ukc all the elimination is done by other other clubs and other people before they get to the finals.

A true elimination style hunt Should be a qualification of wins or a $$$ amount then a week of eliminations plus buy back in options for all that met the qualification requirements.

Tar

So if you lose and got the moolah you just pay again buy back in and your're good to roll on ?

Posted by Dave Richards on 09-09-2020 08:43 PM:

Toad Hill

Do not be fooled by his explanation, that scenario was a $hunt explanation. A cast elimination hunt would be as follows. Dogs drawn out and hunted in casts with the cast winners advancing. I.e. 64 dogs equals 16 casts of 4 dogs equals the number of casts with plus points advancing or maximum of 16 dogs, then 4 casts of 4 dogs if all 16 casts had plus points, then final cast hunt off. This type of hunt would require a 2 night hunt format. Dave

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Posted by V. Cannon on 09-09-2020 10:31 PM:

Another hijacked thread

Posted by novicane65 on 09-09-2020 10:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toad Hill
So if you lose and got the moolah you just pay again buy back in and your're good to roll on ?

Yes, win an early round and a late round to hunt Friday. Friday night you have to double up( win early and late) to hunt Saturday. Sounds way easier than it is. And yes you can buy back in on Tuesday through Thursday, if you were beat the night before.

I didn't fall for this Tournament of champions stuff. There's too much stuff "to be determined" for my liking. Nothing set in stone how they get the "Top 64 dogs", are they taking the top 64 scores from all regions? Or are they taking the top 16 dogs from each region? Hypothetically if it's the top 64 then there's a chance of having all slots filled by Indiana and Ohio spots. I'll just sit back and watch eating my popcorn as fakebook explodes that night.

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Posted by shadinc on 09-10-2020 12:32 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by V. Cannon
Another hijacked thread

Have you ever seen a topic go a full page without changing subject? LOL

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Posted by johnny reb on 09-10-2020 12:37 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by novicane65
Yes, win an early round and a late round to hunt Friday. Friday night you have to double up( win early and late) to hunt Saturday. Sounds way easier than it is. And yes you can buy back in on Tuesday through Thursday, if you were beat the night before.

I didn't fall for this Tournament of champions stuff. There's too much stuff "to be determined" for my liking. Nothing set in stone how they get the "Top 64 dogs", are they taking the top 64 scores from all regions? Or are they taking the top 16 dogs from each region? Hypothetically if it's the top 64 then there's a chance of having all slots filled by Indiana and Ohio spots. I'll just sit back and watch eating my popcorn as fakebook explodes that night.

They will get the 64 dogs from the 4 regional qualifiers. Depending on the number of dogs at each qualifier will determine the number advancing from each qualifier. The same format they have used for regionals and zones for the world.

Posted by novicane65 on 09-10-2020 01:29 AM:

Scores don't mean much to me because there's more factors to consider like the guide you draw. It can make you or break you for determining how many coons are there for your dog to tree. Just because there's coons in the woods you're casting in, doesn't mean they're moving which could be weather or feeding times are off. Or it could be mistakes made by handler or dog during the cast.

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