UKC Forums - Rule Change Proposals 2022

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-- Rule Change Proposals 2022 (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928546438)

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 06-30-2022 02:26 AM:

Rule Change Proposals 2022

2022 Rule Change Proposals
1. Allow the use of thermal imaging devices, cell
phone cameras, and mirrors as scoring aids.
2. Change and combine rules for Dogs Treeing
but Not Declared Treeing to receive the same
demerit, regardless of how the tree is scored. The
recommendation from the proposal is to minus the
strike points and to not assign any additional tree
points in any circumstance.
3. Change Rule 4(b) to read, Strike points will be minus
if none of the declared struck dogs open within 6
minutes. The 6 minutes is a change from the 8
minutes the rule currently requires.
4. Alter the tree countdown to read that the 2nd tree
position closes after 30 seconds, 3rd tree position
closes after 1 minute.
5. Alter Rule 11(d), taking out the stipulation that
you must hear a struck or treed dog open before
recasting.
6. Add the definition of the “implied scratch rule” to
Section 6.
7. Remove the 1st offense Warning from Rule 2(a) for
handlers not striking their dog on or before the 3rd
bark.
8. Remove the 1st offense Warning from Rule 2(d) for
handlers calling the wrong dog.
9. Put a time limit on handlers recasting their dogs
after pulling them off a scoring situation. Give them
up to one minute to recast their dog, or if other
dog in cast is declared treed, up to one minute to
utilize their option to keep their dog on leash until
the next opportunity to recast arises.
10. In any category, a dog to accrue 200 minus points
(regardless of pending strike/tree points) for
running, treeing, or molesting off game. (Off game
must still be seen)

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 06-30-2022 03:11 AM:

Cheyenne's opinion on change proposals...
#1👍good with this change if a dog trees a coon you should do everything you can to find it and score it. (He is not against keeping all cast members together if this were to change)
#2👍minus them their strike. Dog/ handler need to be held accountable always. Consistency in what to do would be easier for those who maybe newer to the sport too.
#3 👎 leave it alone the 8 minutes is fine.
#4 👎 leave it alone. Just like #3. No need to make them the same as the Blue Book. All their getting after 2 minutes is 25 points anyway.
#5 👎👎👎NO!! Those dogs need to be held accountable for their strike. Leave this rule as it is.
#6 👍Yes, include the definition.
#7 👎 Leave as is. As a judge you should be able to say I need a call then if they don't give you a call they should be held accountable.
#8 👍Yes change it back. This one shouldn't have changed last time.
#9 👍sounds good! It needs a time he doesn't care how long the time is as long as it is defined.
#10 👎 leave this rule as is don't change to proposed.

Posted by Pat Bizich on 06-30-2022 01:27 PM:

1. Allow the use of thermal imaging devices,as scoring aid.

NOPE !!!

Everything getting too high tech.
So the guy that can afford a 1000 thermal image device will endeavor to find every coon his dog has treed
While the poor country boy is on his own on most trees

Don't think so....?
How many times has the guy winning a cast sat back and "PRETENDED" to shine a tree or not shined at all because if this coon is scored he will lose the cast ?

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Posted by shadinc on 06-30-2022 03:36 PM:

My question with the thermal is are we going to make it the end-all? If no "hot spot" is seen are we still going to say he could be there let's circle it, or will no "hot spot" be a definite minus?

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Posted by Rick St.Clair on 06-30-2022 10:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
My question with the thermal is are we going to make it the end-all? If no "hot spot" is seen are we still going to say he could be there let's circle it, or will no "hot spot" be a definite minus?

That will never be a rule, I'd bet the farm on it.

Posted by PreacherTom on 06-30-2022 11:24 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by shadinc
My question with the thermal is are we going to make it the end-all? If no "hot spot" is seen are we still going to say he could be there let's circle it, or will no "hot spot" be a definite minus? [/QUOTE

If you've used a Thermal you know the answer to that question. They don't find every coon. They are an aid to find some coon that you can't see or won't look.

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 07-13-2022 05:29 PM:

Ttt

Posted by Black Ash Bawl on 07-14-2022 07:41 AM:

fool proof

is it not true the a possum will show you a hot spot , or a squirrel, turkey , owl..

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Posted by Joe Moore on 07-14-2022 02:15 PM:

Re: fool proof

quote:
Originally posted by Black Ash Bawl
is it not true the a possum will show you a hot spot , or a squirrel, turkey , owl..

All of that is true, but you must visibly see the coon just like finding one and seeing it without a thermal. Just an aide to help you locate the area one might be in. Then you must still see it with your own two eyes

__________________
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Posted by houndsound on 07-14-2022 03:44 PM:

Re: fool proof

quote:
Originally posted by Black Ash Bawl
is it not true the a possum will show you a hot spot , or a squirrel, turkey , owl..

Is it not true that a possum will show you eyes in a tree, or a squirrel, turkey, etc...?

Some common sense here- people don't need to fear the thermal. It provides an indication as to where you should look for the coon. The rule, or ideal, that you must see and confirm a coon has not been suggested to change. This is a tool that will help us find coons in shorter time.

It does not replace the fact that you have to see the coon to confirm it is in the tree.

In my profession of law enforcement we get to take certain actions based on reasonable suspicion. Say a drug detection K9 indicates that it smells the odor of drugs around a car, in a parking lot of several cars.

- I now can say... this is the car I should search. I can't take someone to jail because the dog indicated- but I can use that information to narrow my search. If I then do find drugs in the car- I have confirmed with my eyes the fact that drugs were in the car. Now I have more than a reasonable suspicion- I now have probable cause and can make an arrest not because the dog indicated... but because of the dog's indication I looked and confirmed the actual presence.

In the same way the thermal image gives the hunter, or cast, a strong reasonable suspicion as to where they should be looking. They can't take further action (scoring it) until they have confirmed a coon is in the tree or not.

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Posted by Allen / UKC on 07-14-2022 04:15 PM:

Re: Re: fool proof

quote:
Originally posted by houndsound
Is it not true that a possum will show you eyes in a tree, or a squirrel, turkey, etc...?

Some common sense here- people don't need to fear the thermal. It provides an indication as to where you should look for the coon. The rule, or ideal, that you must see and confirm a coon has not been suggested to change. This is a tool that will help us find coons in shorter time.

It does not replace the fact that you have to see the coon to confirm it is in the tree.

In my profession of law enforcement we get to take certain actions based on reasonable suspicion. Say a drug detection K9 indicates that it smells the odor of drugs around a car, in a parking lot of several cars.

- I now can say... this is the car I should search. I can't take someone to jail because the dog indicated- but I can use that information to narrow my search. If I then do find drugs in the car- I have confirmed with my eyes the fact that drugs were in the car. Now I have more than a reasonable suspicion- I now have probable cause and can make an arrest not because the dog indicated... but because of the dog's indication I looked and confirmed the actual presence.

In the same way the thermal image gives the hunter, or cast, a strong reasonable suspicion as to where they should be looking. They can't take further action (scoring it) until they have confirmed a coon is in the tree or not.

Great way of explaining it sir. Thank you.

Posted by Lance Laymon on 07-14-2022 05:48 PM:

With technology progressing the way it does, soon there won't be any need to hone your skills as a handler. We can just all sit in a club house and see the dogs on a big screen. No need to strike, tree or know how to shine a tree. I miss the old days. The handler skill is not far from being unneeded.

Posted by houndsound on 07-14-2022 05:54 PM:

Lance I would love it if the sport progressed to where it only was truly judging the dog's and what they were doing and "handling skill" was taken out of it all together.

I know I'm in the minority; however, I feel the best thing for the sport is to strive for events that judge dogs on what dogs are doing- not this idea of rewarding handlers for knowing and manipulating strategies for rules. I acknowledge this is part of the sport now- but think we should try to move away from it.

Technology should be embraced, not feared. Why not have every dog wearing a dogtra collar synched to the judges phone so he could see if the handlers are calling the right dog or not? Why not let the judge see on a screen if a dog has actually moved or not after being called treed? Why not use a thermal to speed up locating a coon in a tree?

The first KC that creates an app where a judge can keep score... and finalize a digital score-cared that gets uploaded to the KC's website for all to see automatically will experience great growth.

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Posted by PreacherTom on 07-14-2022 11:37 PM:

If we had some technology that would show/prove wether the coon was there are not, I bet we'd have more accurate tree dogs. But there would still be the guy saying I'm sure he's up there, see how hard my dog is treeing. I'm all for technology in coon hunting if we wind up with better dogs.

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Posted by Lance Laymon on 07-15-2022 02:26 PM:

Houndsound,
I'm just an old country boy and not as smart as some, but I reckon I will respectfully disagree. The comp hunts and coon hunting in general is all about having fun to me. When they take the human element out of it I'm done with it. I love the excitement of calling my dog for what I think it is doing, I love the excitement of the good breaks and the bad breaks in a hunt. Some times you walk away from a tree knowing it is there, but that is part of it. I like to see the best dog win, but it is team work between the dog and handler. Some times I miss a call and ole blooper has to make up for it, that makes the win so much better. When we take the human element out of it there will be no excitement, stomach gitters or rush of adrenaline of making a call and thats when I'm done with it. We need to lose a few we should have won to appreciate the ones we win. When I pay my entry I am paying for the whole experience of competing. Have fun and keep on coonhunting!

Posted by houndsound on 07-15-2022 05:50 PM:

Great post Lance- your disagreement is taken in full respect. Like I said- I know I'm in the minority... I also am in the minority in wanting MLB to use technology to call balls and strikes perfectly every time. I'm a real novice at competition hunts anyway, and won't pretend to be an expert. Pleasure hunter at heart!

For the sake of discussion- how do you feel about squallars being used to help find a coon? It is also a piece of technology... wouldn't most arguments against using technology to advance the accuracy of the hunts have applied to using squallers back in the day? Just something to think about for perspective. Thanks for the good discussion.

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Posted by Lance Laymon on 07-15-2022 06:48 PM:

I dont use squallers, just use my mouth. Squalling involves human skill and practice though so that would be part of the handler skill set. But if you can remember a time when they didn't use them you are a lot older than me. Lol! I do remember some clubs having squalling contests in the past with just your mouth.

Posted by Pat Bizich on 07-18-2022 10:33 PM:

Why bother with a rule change? There are guys in my area already secretively using them to help tell the cast where to look ...... FACT!!!

Why even bother finding the coon.
You PKC guys are so bent on conforming UKC to their style rules .
CAST WINNERS WITH CIRCLE POINTS......... YIPPEEE

Posted by Ricochet17 on 07-19-2022 01:13 PM:

Now now Mark, be nice.

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Posted by JMiller on 07-19-2022 05:24 PM:

thermals

Just a little food for thought. I don't know how the Conservation--Game and Fish laws read in other states but in Alabama it says that it is unlawful to possess any equipment that uses electronics to increase the ability to see in the dark(night vision equipment) while hunting any species of wildlife. So until that has been changed or clarified at least in Alabama hunters need to be aware. That can be found in 220-2-.02 section(e) of Alabama Regulations.

Posted by Rick St.Clair on 07-19-2022 10:28 PM:

Re: thermals

quote:
Originally posted by JMiller
Just a little food for thought. I don't know how the Conservation--Game and Fish laws read in other states but in Alabama it says that it is unlawful to possess any equipment that uses electronics to increase the ability to see in the dark(night vision equipment) while hunting any species of wildlife. So until that has been changed or clarified at least in Alabama hunters need to be aware. That can be found in 220-2-.02 section(e) of Alabama Regulations.

Unless you all are carry a rifle on a cast, dont see how that would ever apply

Posted by Bob Hennessey on 07-20-2022 06:56 PM:

Houndsound, If a judge had to do all you wrote they wouldn't have time to run a dog themselves. There is no chance you could have non- hunting judges at hunts. Not trying to be smart it's my opinion. In all the years I've been a MOH it's hard to find judge that know the rules good enough. I hunted back in the day that NT CH cast had to have a non- hunting judge, worst judging most judges at that time weren't comp. hunters. I'll leave it right there.

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Posted by houndsound on 07-20-2022 07:00 PM:

Bob, I don't think I indicated anything the judge is not already doing? The judge is already paying attention to where a dog is at when it opens- and trees, if it moves or not. The judge is already keeping score? The judge is already looking for a coon in the tree?

Everything I had theorized about was a way to make those things easier for the judge, more accurate, and faster.

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Posted by T Felderman on 07-21-2022 04:04 PM:

#1 don’t care, if passed keep all cast members together.
#2 no, keep as is.
#3 no, keep as is
#4 no, keep as is
#5 no, keep as is
#6 yes
#7 no, keep as is
#8 don’t care either way
#9 yes
#10 no, keep as is. It’s a coon hunt

I don’t believe we will see more plus trees with thermals. JMO

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 07-22-2022 07:18 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by T Felderman
#1 don’t care, if passed keep all cast members together.
#2 no, keep as is.
#3 no, keep as is
#4 no, keep as is
#5 no, keep as is
#6 yes
#7 no, keep as is
#8 don’t care either way
#9 yes
#10 no, keep as is. It’s a coon hunt

I don’t believe we will see more plus trees with thermals. JMO

Your opinions on changes pretty much line up with Chey's and many others we've talked to.
Looks like most here are just voicing opinions on the thermal use and ignoring the other 9 proposals. The people who hunt in many hunts should be thinking on these others and their affects on nite hunts.
For every yes or know he has he has reasoning behind it.

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