UKC Forums - Poll: Rule Proposals Voting

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-- Poll: Rule Proposals Voting (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928522371)

Posted by Pat Bizich on 09-17-2019 07:42 PM:

Poll: Rule Proposals Voting

I been doing a lot of complaining about the way these rule proposals are submitted and voted on by respective breed reps.
I contend with todays social media access by a majority of breed association members that the way votes are submitted and counted needs modified so "ALL MEMBERS" have a say, vote, voice, and are heard.
If an association has say 900 members and only 50-75 attend their national breed . They are in reality the only voices being heard on rule proposal changes.
My understanding was that these breed associations are to get paid members input. So why are just a few having all the say???
I have been doing a slow burn since March that has turned into a blazing fire.
I belong to two separate breed associations which will effectively be the last year for both because of not being fairly represented. What sense is it if my membership gives me no say ????
Starting in March . I had to get Alan involved because one Rep refused my proposal . This was not the first time. BECAUSE I WAS TOLD I HAD TO DO IT AT THE NATIONAL MEETING.
Secondly when I was able to finally get it accepted I feel it was purposely rewritten and without the reason attached.

So unless you are willing to travel 100's of miles to attend a breed days meeting you have no say???
This is dead wrong.
Every paid member should have an opportunity to vote and be heard.
Each association whether on their home page or right here on this forum Breed page can create a poll of all submitted proposals. It will be right there in the public eye for all to see. NO MORE BEHIND CLOSED DOORS OR REPS VOTING THEIR WAY INSTEAD OF THE MAJORITIES WAY.

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Posted by Josh Michaelis on 09-17-2019 07:51 PM:

If that had been the case these changes would have been made years ago

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Posted by Lance Laymon on 09-19-2019 04:33 PM:

I vote to stop changing the rules. It takes a long time to make a dog fit the rules we have, and then we change them

Posted by Robert Johnson on 09-19-2019 05:52 PM:

x2. Close the changing...throw out the proposals from this year... set a new date for submitting proposals year of our lord 2200 and then maybe we can stop some of this madness. No one that's here now will ever care, and the dogs of that year will be much better off because of it.

Realistically, we only need submit any wanted changes to UKC. Get the breed associations out the picture altogether. Its UKC's nickel, and their business. Any needed changes should be done at the registries discretion and with their stamp of approval. In a nutshell it is their business to run and set policy for. If we don't like it we can go else where, which is what everyone does anyway in a business world. Some of these rules are nothing more than promoting dog abuse. Plain and simple.

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Posted by novicane65 on 09-19-2019 10:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Johnson
x2. Close the changing...throw out the proposals from this year... set a new date for submitting proposals year of our lord 2200 and then maybe we can stop some of this madness. No one that's here now will ever care, and the dogs of that year will be much better off because of it.

Realistically, we only need submit any wanted changes to UKC. Get the breed associations out the picture altogether. Its UKC's nickel, and their business. Any needed changes should be done at the registries discretion and with their stamp of approval. In a nutshell it is their business to run and set policy for. If we don't like it we can go else where, which is what everyone does anyway in a business world. Some of these rules are nothing more than promoting dog abuse. Plain and simple.

What rule is promoting dog abuse? I'm lost on your thinking and reasoning. And if you think the rules haven't needed a huge reform for 20+ years you're delusional. I agree with taking the breed reps out of the equation all together. Let ukc set the rules. They would be changed a long time ago.

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Posted by Lance Laymon on 09-20-2019 12:30 AM:

Why is it so important to change the rules? Why should a dog only tree for 3 minutes? Why call time out for time walking between all trees, the 10 minute rule worked just fine. Why should a handler be required to turn a dog back loose if another dog is treed close and they don't want too? I assume that would mean immediately after being pulled off tree, because UKC doesn't have a walk a minute rule. Now that I think about it, a dog could be assigned 25 tree points on a tree and not even have their minute of not having to strike up yet. Why On a tree count down, a handler that knows his dog is not right, can now lay back and only take a quarter lick versus getting 75 minus? Just a few of the questions I have. People have made Grand and Nite champions for years and now we change the rules of how it is done. I don't like change and I really don't like it just for the sake of change.

Posted by pabeagler on 09-20-2019 12:45 AM:

Great post, let the polling be done on here and see the results. That way everyone gets a chance to cast their vote

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Posted by novicane65 on 09-20-2019 02:29 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Lance Laymon
Why is it so important to change the rules? Why should a dog only tree for 3 minutes? Why call time out for time walking between all trees, the 10 minute rule worked just fine. Why should a handler be required to turn a dog back loose if another dog is treed close and they don't want too? I assume that would mean immediately after being pulled off tree, because UKC doesn't have a walk a minute rule. Now that I think about it, a dog could be assigned 25 tree points on a tree and not even have their minute of not having to strike up yet. Why On a tree count down, a handler that knows his dog is not right, can now lay back and only take a quarter lick versus getting 75 minus? Just a few of the questions I have. People have made Grand and Nite champions for years and now we change the rules of how it is done. I don't like change and I really don't like it just for the sake of change.

Why is it so important to be stuck on a set of old rules? I personally would rather have a 5 minute tree time. But I'm not opposed to a 3 minute time either. And the rule was more changed for a backing dog that would break its neck to cover a dog. And it get 75 points for doing nothing but backing a dog. I wouldn't start casting too many stones until you hunt under the new rules. The format was changed because you had to rely on your guide putting you in coon to win the hunt. That's taken out of the equation now. It doesn't matter what guide you draw at a local hunt now. It doesn't matter if you win your cast with +25 or +1200. And it's supposed to get more entries for the local clubs.

Posted by yadkintar on 09-20-2019 02:49 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by novicane65
Why is it so important to be stuck on a set of old rules? I personally would rather have a 5 minute tree time. But I'm not opposed to a 3 minute time either. And the rule was more changed for a backing dog that would break its neck to cover a dog. And it get 75 points for doing nothing but backing a dog. I wouldn't start casting too many stones until you hunt under the new rules. The format was changed because you had to rely on your guide putting you in coon to win the hunt. That's taken out of the equation now. It doesn't matter what guide you draw at a local hunt now. It doesn't matter if you win your cast with +25 or +1200. And it's supposed to get more entries for the local clubs.

The ones complaining most don’t compete anymore. Plus they couldn’t remember the old rules we had since the 80’s. So these new ones scare them to death. Amazing how many moh don’t know the rules but they like making that extra cash every month for just setting there. That’s why most just settle it in the woods they know better than to ask them a question. If you don’t like change don’t go simple as that.

Tar

Posted by novicane65 on 09-20-2019 03:02 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
The ones complaining most don’t compete anymore. Plus they couldn’t remember the old rules we had since the 80’s. So these new ones scare them to death. Amazing how many moh don’t know the rules but they like making that extra cash every month for just setting there. That’s why most just settle it in the woods they know better than to ask them a question. If you don’t like change don’t go simple as that.

Tar

I definitely agree. Most of the squeaky ones don't even compete anymore, but aren't afraid to tell the rest of us that these rules won't work.

Posted by Robert Johnson on 09-20-2019 12:24 PM:

rule 7. plain and simple. ole deep and lonely is all everyone will strive for, and they'll do whatever is needed to make that hound obey that mind set, even though by nature hounds are pack hunters like all other strains of their species. It takes no scholar to figure it out. A shock collar, big stick and stern owner can make a dog do almost anything. It really doesn't matter to me either way. I am to old to care, but ruining the sport for the future is bad for all.

Posted by Robert Johnson on 09-20-2019 12:24 PM:

Posted by yadkintar on 09-20-2019 12:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Johnson
rule 7. plain and simple. ole deep and lonely is all everyone will strive for, and they'll do whatever is needed to make that hound obey that mind set, even though by nature hounds are pack hunters like all other strains of their species. It takes no scholar to figure it out. A shock collar, big stick and stern owner can make a dog do almost anything. It really doesn't matter to me either way. I am to old to care, but ruining the sport for the future is bad for all.

Rock I expect you to be a cut above the rest !! Either study the new rules like I am going to have to or stay home !! They did this to bring in the younger hunters and it will and fire up the older ones to. If you don’t like it it’s ok but give it a chance before all the gloom and doom.

You said you had one dog at your last hunt anything is an improvement over that.

Tar

Posted by Lance Laymon on 09-20-2019 12:39 PM:

I hunt ukc regularly. The numbers are going down at the ones I go to. Most of the dogs entered are young and unfinished. These new rules will keep these dogs away.

Posted by novicane65 on 09-20-2019 12:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Johnson
rule 7. plain and simple. ole deep and lonely is all everyone will strive for, and they'll do whatever is needed to make that hound obey that mind set, even though by nature hounds are pack hunters like all other strains of their species. It takes no scholar to figure it out. A shock collar, big stick and stern owner can make a dog do almost anything. It really doesn't matter to me either way. I am to old to care, but ruining the sport for the future is bad for all.

The no leash lock takes old deep n lonely out of the equation now. So if your dog gets treed close with a coon, you can recut and be treed with another coon before O.D.L. can get cut back loose. I don't see an issue with it. And for the record, not all dogs will pack up. I've seen naturally independent pups before. I guess you haven't ever seen 1 before, so I figured I'd let you know there's some out there. And if you consider using the e-collar abuse then you probably shouldn't hold a leash. And how did you "train" your dogs back in the day? Was it totally different then? Did you just sit the dog down and have a chat with them? I agree that a good "trainer" can get a dog to do most things. But maybe you should take a step back and think before you speak. There's nothing in these rules that's really that new. Very similar rules are being used in a good portion of the country. Again don't cast too many stones before you actually hunt with these rules..

Posted by yadkintar on 09-20-2019 12:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Lance Laymon
I hunt ukc regularly. The numbers are going down at the ones I go to. Most of the dogs entered are young and unfinished. These new rules will keep these dogs away.

The ones that refuse to look at this as a positive thing and swell up like an old toad frog and refuse to participate will be replaced with hunters that are positive two to one.

Tar

Posted by Robert Johnson on 09-20-2019 01:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by novicane65
The no leash lock takes old deep n lonely out of the equation now. So if your dog gets treed close with a coon, you can recut and be treed with another coon before O.D.L. can get cut back loose. I don't see an issue with it. And for the record, not all dogs will pack up. I've seen naturally independent pups before. I guess you haven't ever seen 1 before, so I figured I'd let you know there's some out there. And if you consider using the e-collar abuse then you probably shouldn't hold a leash. And how did you "train" your dogs back in the day? Was it totally different then? Did you just sit the dog down and have a chat with them? I agree that a good "trainer" can get a dog to do most things. But maybe you should take a step back and think before you speak. There's nothing in these rules that's really that new. Very similar rules are being used in a good portion of the country. Again don't cast too many stones before you actually hunt with these rules..

You need to think before you speak. Its hard to find hunting ground now without trespassing, but I am sure there are many who care less about that. It will be interesting to see what actually makes it into the rule book.
some of it will, some won't, even some that has been voted on as passed.

Posted by yadkintar on 09-20-2019 01:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Johnson
You need to think before you speak. Its hard to find hunting ground now without trespassing, but I am sure there are many who care less about that. It will be interesting to see what actually makes it into the rule book.
some of it will, some won't, even some that has been voted on as passed.

Rock just watch your soap operas and gun smoke reruns there are some intelligent people working on this behind the scenes it be ok.

Tar

Posted by pamjohnson on 09-20-2019 02:00 PM:

I have been thinking about what rock said about abusive behavior and we do need to take what he said and give it very serious taught. I don't like to think about it honestly because it's scary. The rules sure shouldn't promote any bad behavior and some handlers/trainers will go to any limits to achieve there goal of winning.
Yeah I know there is plenty of people thinking they won't do that. Wrong it happens
Next excuse but some dogs are natural loners. Yes but we all know that is not the norm.
Careful thinking can prevent future issues.

Posted by Sgraves on 09-20-2019 02:25 PM:

There is a rule in place that takes care of the dog being abused during hunt time. Use it if you think a person is abusing a dog. You can get a dog to do almost anything you want it to . Once they understand what you expect from them a verbal approach will normally work. The main reason I believe for the deep an alone is people are tired of these back packing pos getting undeserved points. You people are sinking the ship before it leaves harbor. Sounding like a bunch of whining liberals.

Posted by Josh Michaelis on 09-20-2019 02:33 PM:

These posts are absurd.

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Posted by Robert Johnson on 09-20-2019 02:59 PM:

its all good with me tar. I like gunsmoke, but I ain't so keen on them soap operas. You are right in some smart people working on these issues, but some smarter yet thought things out and then pointed them out to some smart folks. Oh change can be good, but it can also be bad. This one was not thought out in broad terms, just through the blinders of what we want to hunt and what we like. It really takes a narrow minded person to think that dogs are all loners or even packers. By nature, most pack, but there are always exceptions to everything. What I do know for sure is given enough voltage and stickings, I can make a dog scared to look into a mirror. The really narrow minded will say that won't happen. Right!!!

Posted by Robert Johnson on 09-20-2019 03:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Sgraves
There is a rule in place that takes care of the dog being abused during hunt time. Use it if you think a person is abusing a dog. You can get a dog to do almost anything you want it to . Once they understand what you expect from them a verbal approach will normally work. The main reason I believe for the deep an alone is people are tired of these back packing pos getting undeserved points. You people are sinking the ship before it leaves harbor. Sounding like a bunch of whining liberals.

Mr Graves. You hit the nail on the head. During hunt time! Not to many hunters are dumb enough to try to "train" at the hunt. The abusive part is done long before then. You call them back packers. Call them whatever you want, but how can anyone say the points are undeserved? The rules clearly state the points awarded and in what order. If the hound that's the best hound is working right, he/she will win most times. Points are deserved when earned in accordance with the rules, letting the hounds be their natural selves. What the real problem is the loner dog can't beat the packer when the loner has been made to fear his own kind and you know it, but will not admit it. There are many dogs man made to be alone. Not so many that are natural. Yes there are some. All is in the eye of the beholder, or should we say what we hold on our lead. To each his own, but changing rules to fit what we hunt is not the right thing to do. You sound more like the AOC type than I could ever sound. Good luck to you. I just stated a point that has not been thought out in depth as it should be. Rules can be anything, and if I am moh they will be enforced as written. We just need to be careful what we right because it can be detramental at times.

Posted by Lance Laymon on 09-20-2019 05:05 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yadkintar
[B]The ones that refuse to look at this as a positive thing and swell up like an old toad frog and refuse to participate will be replaced with hunters that are positive two to one.

I will watch the local hunts I go to next year and see if the numbers double. Would you care to put a wager on that?

Posted by Al Medcalf on 09-20-2019 06:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Johnson
rule 7. plain and simple. ole deep and lonely is all everyone will strive for, and they'll do whatever is needed to make that hound obey that mind set, even though by nature hounds are pack hunters like all other strains of their species. It takes no scholar to figure it out. A shock collar, big stick and stern owner can make a dog do almost anything. It really doesn't matter to me either way. I am to old to care, but ruining the sport for the future is bad for all.

Mr. Johnson, I'm not a competition hunter but I've been coon hunting since I was a young'un and I'm long in the tooth now. You are absolutely right! I've even seen posts where fools have said to shock a dog for covering another dog to train him. Those folks are the ones that need a **** shock collar on their necks. I'm like you, I've been around long enough that you can't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining!

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