UKC Forums - High Drive

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-14-2017 10:05 PM:

Re: Re: Re: High Drive

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
Can you expand a little more on your theory that "breeding for any one trait means you have to give up on another trait" ?

Nope, pretty self explanatory. It isn't just a "theory". And some common dogs are commonly good.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 11-14-2017 10:21 PM:

That hasn't been my experience....so I was hoping you could explain that in a little more detail....but that's fine.
Has anyone else experienced this trait swap thing where you lose a trait for every trait you add? Just curious.....maybe I'm misunderstanding the original statement.

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Posted by RedScorpion on 11-14-2017 10:47 PM:

I don't want to answer for Richard, but when I read what he said, I interpreted it to mean that if someone exclusively breeds for high drive, because it is that hard to come by, he would invariably sacrifice other traits at its expense...

But if one can find a dog with it all, you would not have to sacrifice anything. I did not read it as a one-for-one swap in traits.

But maybe I misinterpreted, I don't interpret southern very well.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-15-2017 01:28 AM:

You are much more experienced than I am so I figured you would understand. When you breed in more or quicker tree, you lose accuracy. When you breed in more accuracy you lose quick tree. Or when you breed in track you lose tree or when you breed in tree you lose track. When you breed in drive you lose brains and sense. Or when you breed in drive you lose pleasure and handle. When you breed in more track mouth or strike you get a babbler or loose mouth. Does that explain it better?
But apparantly you have figured a way to breed in one trait without loseing another.

Posted by novicane65 on 11-15-2017 01:30 AM:

I had redbones back in 07-09. I had to get out of dogs for a few years because of a divorce and my work schedule. But if I was looking for drive in a red coat I'd be searching out the " all night brush buster " blood. Every dog I ever hunted with out of that line had an extra dose of GO POWER. I've hunted with around 10-12 and none out of the same female. So I know where it came from. But I'm not really a red guy. Just thought I'd share my experience on where you could possibly get some go.

PS not sure if Kevin Shirley even has any semen stored on buster or a buster son. But it'd be worth looking into.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-15-2017 02:04 AM:

You are right about the Buster II dogs. Just about all of them would go. Kevin told me once towards the end that he had bred in too much drive and was going to have to take some out. And I think that Buster IV or Rhino is still around if you want one that you turn loose and then go looking for.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 11-15-2017 04:45 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
You are much more experienced than I am so I figured you would understand. When you breed in more or quicker tree, you lose accuracy. When you breed in more accuracy you lose quick tree. Or when you breed in track you lose tree or when you breed in tree you lose track. When you breed in drive you lose brains and sense. Or when you breed in drive you lose pleasure and handle. When you breed in more track mouth or strike you get a babbler or loose mouth. Does that explain it better?
But apparantly you have figured a way to breed in one trait without loseing another.

It's hard to win a lot in competition...across the country in different types of hunting year round with a dog that doesn't have drive, accuracy, and that is a quick tree dog.
Every year there are a hand full of examples in this breed that prove that....so how is it possible that they have these important and utterly necessary traits and abilities if you can't have them all in the same dog?
I always hunt a quick tree dog...and I won't hunt one that isn't accurate so I disagree that you can't have both.
It's easy to generalize those things...but it has not been true in most of the dogs I have bred, trained, and then won with over the years. If I'm not getting over 70% first trees...with real live coons in them in competition hunts...that dog won't stay at my place long or be used in my breeding program. Same goes for some of the other traits I deem essential for any competition dog to have.
The dogs who win alot....in bigger hunts with real levels of competition in different states and not just in their own back yard and at Redbone hunts have most of what competition hunters require in a dog...thats just a fact. They would not win consistently for long periods of time if they lacked very much in any important trait like drive, accuracy or being a quick locator. Most will be above average strike dogs as well. They may not all have the same levels in each area...but you can't win much outside your back yard if they lack badly in these traits. If you think so...then you probably don't get out much and compete at the higher levels of competition across the country. There are examples out there of these types of dogs....but very few examples of breeders who are breeding specifically for most of these key traits....and showing real results year after year by producing consistent winners.

Posted by okreddog56 on 11-15-2017 05:31 AM:

I DON'T KNOW WHAT SOME PEOPLE STYLE OF PLEASURE DOG IS BUT I AM NOT GOING TO WALK AND FOLLOW A DOG THROUGH THE WOODS TO WALK THEM OVER A TRACK,I AM GOING TO SEND A DOG FROM THE TRUCK OR RANGER AND WHEN THEY TREE I AM GOING DRIVE AS CLOSE AS I CAN AND THEN WALK TO THE TREE,IT IS NOT TO HARD TO HANDLE A DOG WITH A LOT OF DRIVE THAT WAY.DOGS WITH DRIVE DON'T ALL BLOW THROUGH COUNTRY BEFORE THEY START HUNTING.I DON'T MIND A DOG DEEP AND ALONE AS LONG AS THERE IS NOT DOGS TREEING COON BEHIND THEM.

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Posted by novicane65 on 11-15-2017 07:30 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
You are right about the Buster II dogs. Just about all of them would go. Kevin told me once towards the end that he had bred in too much drive and was going to have to take some out. And I think that Buster IV or Rhino is still around if you want one that you turn loose and then go looking for.

It was a huge issue when I owned cricket. Because at that time I couldn't afford a tracking system. Hell I could barely feed the dogs and pay the bills the way the ex wife spent our money. But some how I always managed to do it.
And I thought that's what the OP was asking about to get opinions. But on another note I know of a future cross being planned to get as much or more go than the buster 2 line has. It will be walker x redbone cross.

Posted by Donnie Stevens on 11-15-2017 09:05 AM:

I want them to go hard and never quit. I can train them to handle if I need. You can't train high drive you gotta breed for it but I can take a little out if I need to.

I'd think the only trait you'd breed out by breeding for high drive is lazy or slow gettin out or quick to quit a bad track and that's a good thing(if you want more drive anyway)

I've heard the ragged ridge are known to go hard the brush buster dogs and the barnyard Harry/Crow dogs

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Posted by L.Richard on 11-15-2017 11:44 AM:

Looks like

To me, there are a number that like,breed for, and win with dogs that have a lot of drive? I guess it is not a bad thing after all. Thanks for the good info.

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Posted by novicane65 on 11-15-2017 01:08 PM:

Re: High drive?

quote:
Originally posted by L.Richard
I think the question has always been....if we can breed for it, who has it, and does it get reproduced in high percentages?

This post is the reason I even responded. I remember my female was out of a good female. But I sure don't remember what exactly. I know her dam went to a bunch of bigger hunts and did well. But it's been almost 10 years since I saw her papers. But them buster dogs would definitely go find a coon if they weren't moving very well.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-15-2017 01:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
The dogs who win alot....in bigger hunts with real levels of competition in different states and not just in their own back yard and at Redbone hunts have most of what competition hunters require in a dog...that is just a fact.

I had a dog several years back that had no drive and was downright lazy. But he did win a couple of comp hunts. His name was Mongo Red. He could tree a coon any time that he wanted to but only when he wanted to. He had the opposite of drive but was still able to win $8,000 in some pretty stiff competition. And he did it back when you only won $25-$40 per cast win.

Posted by L.Richard on 11-15-2017 05:35 PM:

Mr. Lambert

You make some valid arguments....and I believe you are on to something.But....you name one dog that was lazy that won a bunch.That is a pretty short list,sooo cograts on that hound. Some would like to win with a dog that has some drive.It is okay to go about things in a different fashion.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-15-2017 06:47 PM:

Yes it is, everyone has their own fashion. I would never say or think that what I do or my fashion is for everyone. I just post what I think or do. Everyone can form their own opinion or come up with what suits them.
And Mongo was a special hound. He could have won a lot more if he had more drive. He made a lot of top walker men very mad when he beat them. They all knew their dogs had drive and he didnt but he would still beat them. I had nothing to do with his breeding and I am not saying that I liked his style. But I did like making those guys with their high powered walker dogs so mad. To me drive is a great trait in a hound but there are several other traits also. Above all is that special ability to find a coon whether it is 20 yds or 2,000 yds. While I realize that some people are much better at it than I am, it has been my experience that when you breed for a dog that goes 2,000 yds you lose those 20 yd coons. So I like balance in a dog. But of course, that is just my personal preference. And I can admire any dog that is a winner no matter what his style of hunting.

Posted by RedScorpion on 11-15-2017 09:53 PM:

Re: High Drive

quote:
Originally posted by jdgher
Do you have more trouble with High Drive dogs running off game? Is that a trade off? Are they harder to brake, because they are so determined and driven? If you get them broke, or almost broke are they better for competition hunts?
Which lines tend to be naturally straight or easy to brake, yet have High Drive. Does that even exist?

Valid point. I have seen where trashing goes hand-in-hand with high drive dogs and I have seen it where it doesn't. I think a driven dog (if also smart) is not any harder to break. But your point has got me thinking.

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Posted by okreddog56 on 11-16-2017 03:41 AM:

I HAVE BROKE A LOT OF HARD DRIVING DOGS WITHOUT EVER PUTTING A SHOCK COLLAR ON THEM,A HARD DRIVING DOG WITH BRAINS IS NOT HARD TO BRAKE.

Posted by jdgher on 11-16-2017 07:52 PM:

High Drive

I agree with Richard. When you breed to get more of a particular trait, example: drive or quick strike, often times you lose or weaken another trait that you had. (My experience). Even though, if you want something different you have to go after it and hope for the best.
Some people may have dog(s) that are strong in all the right traits. That is what I would call a real balanced hound. Those hounds are not common at all from what I've seen. Very rare. I haven't owned one.

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 11-16-2017 10:50 PM:

I must have got really lucky with the Jet x Bree and Aftershock x Bree crosses.
They sure produced some balanced dogs that had the right traits to win in competition.... but that was ...and still is the goal in my breeding program.
I hope that through the right amount of line breeding and an occasional targeted outcross...that we can hold onto the drive and the other traits badly needed to compete and win against the other breeds in competition.
I've been at this for years and while most crosses we have made "worked" and produced good solid coon dogs and even some big winners....it was always my opinion that most lacked or were weak in one or maybe two of the top 4 necessary competition traits. Sometimes it was on being quick enough strike or open enough on track and and a few times they didn't deliver the level of drive we have all been talking about on this thread. Its become fairly predictable in my crosses that the pups will have certain traits...almost a given...but my goal is and always has been to produce whole litters where the majority of the pups have adequate levels of all 4 of the top traits competition dogs need to win at the top levels of competition.
High drive as some are calling it is defiantly one of those...but I think the other 3 are also equally important and when you witness some of the top competition winners in the country in action multiple times....thats when you really see that most of those particular dogs do in fact posses a high level of ability in all four areas. If one seems weak in one area...it probably makes up for it by being really high in ability in another area.
Dogs that have above average drive, above average ability to strike a track before other dogs and move it ahead of them, then have above average ability to accurately locate the tree before most dogs they hunt against are truly great dogs. If you don't competition hunt a dog against a lot of other top dogs in a lot of different parts of the country and see these abilities and see that these are the reasons those wins pile up....then you may not understand what is truly behind some of the biggest and most consistent winners in this sport.
Even when you identify the rare dogs like these .....dogs are dogs and they all have bad nights and good night's and they have trouble staying on a "winning streak" for very long. Sometimes they hold everything together for a couple months....sometimes a whole year...but rarely are they able to peak and remain on top of their game for more than two competition seasons. Doesn't mean they are not still good dogs...just means that age, miles, and other influences tend to change them. But if there is one single trait that can help a dog push through those detrimental things and still win in competition....its a high level of drive and desire to seek out and tree coons!

Posted by L.Richard on 11-17-2017 10:16 AM:

High drive?

Maybe we should be talking about desire, and not drive.Any thoughts?

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-17-2017 02:05 PM:

We still haven't heard from anyone besides Shane and Leonard that are breeding for drive?

Posted by oklared on 11-17-2017 03:25 PM:

YOU MIGHT CHECK WITH THE SPOTTED DOG FOLKS, HI DRIVE, NOT SO MANY COON, BUT STILL WIN. MMMMM

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Posted by jbiggert on 11-17-2017 04:06 PM:

The dogs I hunt all have drive don't need to bred for it, its just there. And those who have some of my blood they may have a little. I say my blood ,BUT it comes from the great old timers, not from me. I just put together what these great redbone men started an added my twist to it like RICHARD dose. but not all the old storys are true. that is where the problem comes in. and also the new storys. And I have hunted all lines of red dogs. I do know what the best line of dog is. (EVERY BUDDY ESLE BUT MINE.)

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-17-2017 04:40 PM:

I think that Boone has a little Pepper Ann in him. Who made the CD X Pepper Ann cross?

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 11-17-2017 05:36 PM:

I think Doug Moore and Danny Biggert owned Pepper Ann when she was bred to C.D.
I may be wrong but I think that's what Doug told me.

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