UKC Forums - scratch or with draw ?

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-- scratch or with draw ? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=382192)

Posted by Okie Dawg on 10-18-2010 04:53 AM:

scratch or with draw ?

I was in a hunt the other night and a couple guys scratched there own dog and took them out of the hunt. Shouldn't they had just with drawn there dog? One done it becouse his dog had lost his voice and the other done it becouse his ws treeing on a possom. It was an open regesterd cast.

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Posted by lockednks on 10-18-2010 05:33 AM:

Grady, whats the difference? Seems like it ends up being all the same on the score card...

Posted by DeerCoonhunter on 10-18-2010 12:58 PM:

Should not of been allowed to scratch there own dog. They should have with drawn their dog and filled out the card respectively on the left side of the card. Everybody intials the scores at that time of entry. Then they need to stay with the cast and finish hunting.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 10-18-2010 02:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by lockednks
Grady, whats the difference? Seems like it ends up being all the same on the score card...

If you get scratched it is possible to get written up and even bared from UKC and they done nothing wrong. So it looks a lot better on the card to just with draw.

DeerCoonHunter, they did sight and intial the card and stayed with the cast and help finish. They din nothing wrong and was a pleasure to hunt with. I just think they may had chosen the wrong word scratch instead of withdraw and I am wondering if it will hurt them in any way. I told our hunting director there was no problem and they just scratched themselves so there would be no problem.

Posted by josh on 10-18-2010 03:22 PM:

For all practical purposes withdraw and scratch are the same thing.

Posted by DeerCoonhunter on 10-18-2010 03:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by josh
For all practical purposes withdraw and scratch are the same thing.

They are not!!!!!!! Where do get this from????? If its the same thing then get rid of one of them............ You dont with draw for dogs fighting you get scratched and then its reported. This is the difference....If you were to with draw a dog for fighting then you could possibly escape the write up.
You have a problem with filling out the score card on the left side Josh don't you ? you have argued this before, just follow the rules.

Posted by josh on 10-18-2010 03:33 PM:

Where did you get scratched for fighting?

There are many reasons a dog or handler can be scratched.

By withdrawing you are essentially scratching your dog.

Posted by DeerCoonhunter on 10-18-2010 03:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by josh

Where did you get scratched for fighting?

There are many reasons a dog or handler can be scratched.

By withdrawing you are essentially scratching your dog.

Fighting is just one reason for getting scratched your right. You are so worong. And what the heck do you mean by your question ?????? It was an example on my part the difference of scratch and withdraw.

Posted by josh on 10-18-2010 03:45 PM:

Ok partner, I'll type real slow for you.

The left side of the card only needs to be filled out if a cast member is leaving the cast. If they withdraw/scratch they are still a voting member of the cast.

At UKC zones if you WITHDRAW on Friday night you wont hunt on Sat. because you SCRATCHED your dog.

Posted by DeerCoonhunter on 10-18-2010 04:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by josh
Ok partner, I'll type real slow for you.

The left side of the card only needs to be filled out if a cast member is leaving the cast. If they withdraw/scratch they are still a voting member of the cast.

At UKC zones if you WITHDRAW on Friday night you wont hunt on Sat. because you SCRATCHED your dog.

Well Pal maybe you shouldn't type so fast !!!!!
becasue you are required to fill out the left side of the card and stil participate in still be a voting member. When you withdraw.

Posted by josh on 10-18-2010 04:19 PM:

You do know that UKC will eventually ban your IP and you wont even be able to read this board, right?

Posted by runnin rebels on 10-18-2010 04:50 PM:

deer coonhunter

"you are required to fill out the left side of the card and stil participate in still be a voting member. When you withdraw."

What do you do if I withdraw/or scratch myself however you want to label it. I quit. And I refuse to stay with the cast or fill out and initial the left side?

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Posted by DeerCoonhunter on 10-18-2010 04:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by runnin rebels
deer coonhunter

"you are required to fill out the left side of the card and stil participate in still be a voting member. When you withdraw."

What do you do if I withdraw/or scratch myself however you want to label it. I quit. And I refuse to stay with the cast or fill out and initial the left side?

Go back to club and fill out a mis conduct ffom. Which can not be refused, and then a hearing is held by the club and a panel decides if someone committed a mis conduct. By refusing to sign is considered "fasifying a scorecard".

Posted by JiM on 10-18-2010 04:57 PM:

You do not intial the left side of the card when you are scratched or withdraw, you only do that when you LEAVE THE CAST. Scratch/withdraw, it is the same thing. Your dog is no longer in the hunt but the handler is still a cast member unless he/she leaves the cast.

Okie, you cannot be barred because you dog was scratched.

Refusing to sign the card is not falsifing, it is not anything except that it gets you scratched from the cast.

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Posted by DeerCoonhunter on 10-18-2010 05:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
You do not intial the left side of the card when you are scratched or withdraw, you only do that when you LEAVE THE CAST. Scratch/withdraw, it is the same thing. Your dog is no longer in the hunt but the handler is still a cast member unless he/she leaves the cast.

Okie, you cannot be barred because you dog was scratched.

Refusing to sign the card is not falsifing, it is not anything except that it gets you scratched from the cast.

I dis agree with your interpetation of this, I would like to see where is says you do not have to intial and record the scores when you with draw. Scratched / withdraw are not he same, When nite Ch trees a off game do you withdraw or do you get scratched ??
Also when your dog gets in trouble like fight at the tree do you get to withdraw your dog, No you get scrtched. It states in the rules that you are not allowed to withdraw your dog to avoid being scratched for a dog fight. I am sorry I do not agree.

Posted by josh on 10-18-2010 05:24 PM:

If you WITHDRAW you are SCRATCHED.

It dosent work the other way around, you cant get SCRATCHED then decide to WITHDRAW.

Was the first grade difficult for you?

Posted by DeerCoonhunter on 10-18-2010 05:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by josh
If you WITHDRAW you are SCRATCHED.

It dosent work the other way around, you cant get SCRATCHED then decide to WITHDRAW.

Was the first grade difficult for you?

Someone with the authority of the rules needs to answer this, and to answer your question no it was not !

Posted by JiM on 10-18-2010 06:14 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DeerCoonhunter
[B]I dis agree with your interpetation of this, I would like to see where is says you do not have to intial and record the scores when you with draw.

Page 99 in the Advisor states that failure to intial the boxes in the left column IS NOT a reason to disqualify the card.

No one is required to sign anything on the card. But if you don't sign the card at the end of the hunt, you are scratched. (Rule13)
If you decline/refuse/forget to intial the left side when you leave the cast before the hunt is completed, NOTHING happens.
If you sign the card before the hunt is completed, THEN you have falsified the card because signing the scorecard (as opposed to intialing the left side) is the act of certifing the cast hunted exactly 120 minutes and obviously, you cannot certify that if you leave the cast before the hunt is over. That is why you should INTIAL the left side when you leave, but it is not required.

Bottom line? You only intial the left side if you leave the cast before the hunt is complete, you do not sign the card if you don't complete the hunt.
You SIGN the card when the hunt time is completed reguardless of whether your dog completed the hunt or not.

Posted by DeerCoonhunter on 10-18-2010 06:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DeerCoonhunter
[B]I dis agree with your interpetation of this, I would like to see where is says you do not have to intial and record the scores when you with draw.

Page 99 in the Advisor states that failure to intial the boxes in the left column IS NOT a reason to disqualify the card.

No one is required to sign anything on the card. But if you don't sign the card at the end of the hunt, you are scratched. (Rule13)
If you decline/refuse/forget to intial the left side when you leave the cast before the hunt is completed, NOTHING happens.
If you sign the card before the hunt is completed, THEN you have falsified the card because signing the scorecard (as opposed to intialing the left side) is the act of certifing the cast hunted exactly 120 minutes and obviously, you cannot certify that if you leave the cast before the hunt is over. That is why you should INTIAL the left side when you leave, but it is not required.

Bottom line? You only intial the left side if you leave the cast before the hunt is complete, you do not sign the card if you don't complete the hunt.
You SIGN the card when the hunt time is completed reguardless of whether your dog completed the hunt or not.

Ok Thank you.

Posted by Jack Bingham on 10-18-2010 07:36 PM:

you do not have to fill out the left side of the score card or initial it either if you leave the cast.

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Posted by oklared on 10-18-2010 07:43 PM:

Scratched or withdrawn except for fighting or attempting to fight what difference does it make, why even discuse the issue?

Posted by Okie Dawg on 10-18-2010 10:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by oklared
Scratched or withdrawn except for fighting or attempting to fight what difference does it make, why even discuse the issue?

That was the originall question. I thought one was voluteer withdraw and scratch was a forced out of the hunt. I know for a scratch you can get written up. I know it says you can't withdraw to keep from getting scratched. There for there has to be some differance. Just wondering what the differance is. So if I am ever in a cast like the other night I will know the differance.
After this discustion I would like to see Allen or one of the UKC guys advise.

Posted by BIG$BLUES on 10-18-2010 11:03 PM:

WOW!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted by Jack Bingham on 10-18-2010 11:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BIG$BLUES
WOW!!!!!!!!!!

My thoughts exactly this is why people don't have fun in the hunts to many people thinking they know the rules ( BUT DON'T) and then want to argue about something petty. To many internet coonhunters.

Posted by Wildcountry on 10-18-2010 11:30 PM:

The only Scratched that is a wright up would be for fighting if it is not plain Scratched for fighting or SF they will not be wrote up for it . if I am wrong let me know thanks.

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