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-- Proposal #1 - Babbling (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928518380)

quote:

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Originally posted by Fisher13
How do you train
babbling?

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__________________
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

Lone Pine North

Just eliminate the strike points all together , or circle/delete depending on if there is a coon in the tree or not. this will solve the silent/babbling debate.

__________________
The more laws a nation has the more corrupt the nation.

When the law of the land becomes unjust outlaws will rise to take their place in history.

quote:

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Originally posted by Fisher13
How do you train
babbling?

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__________________
The more laws a nation has the more corrupt the nation.

When the law of the land becomes unjust outlaws will rise to take their place in history.

quote:

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Originally posted by Fisher13
How do you train
babbling?

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__________________
Let's go huntin

A Solution in Search of a Problem?

I've seen way more silent and semi-silent dogs than I've babblers. If we want open trailers, we can't penalize dogs to the extent that open trailers can't win in competition. If you have a silent/semi-silent dog, you SHOULD be at a disadvantage on strike points, just as if you have a last tree dog (split or not) you should be at a disadvantage on tree points. I'm saying this as someone that typically has hunted dogs that I call semi-silent (a half dozen or less barks on track).

Again, strike points are not the problem. Giving 3rd and 4th tree dogs the same points as 1st tree dogs is, to me, a much bigger problem.

If you want open trailers, there has to be some benefit for open trailers. If you want dogs that can tree ahead of (before) the other dogs, there has to be some benefit to that.

quote:

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Originally posted by Rip
Easy, hold the dog back on turn loose til it starts barking and then fail to correct it as it gets worse.

You will have a babbler in no time. Back when I started and babbling was still considered an undesirable trait you made sure not to have those off to the races turn loose with a pup that couldn't keep up or you would have to break babbling later.

Now people do it and then claim to have a great strike dog.

Yeah they strike a coon off the leash every single drop even down the yellow line of the black top LOL.

Yes some of it is genetic and some is learned but some are made just as I described above. Used to they were made on accident. Now they are made to have an advantage. They like to "carry that hunnered with me".

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__________________
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

quote:

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Originally posted by Rip
Easy, hold the dog back on turn loose til it starts barking and then fail to correct it as it gets worse.

You will have a babbler in no time. Back when I started and babbling was still considered an undesirable trait you made sure not to have those off to the races turn loose with a pup that couldn't keep up or you would have to break babbling later.

Now people do it and then claim to have a great strike dog.

Yeah they strike a coon off the leash every single drop even down the yellow line of the black top LOL.

Yes some of it is genetic and some is learned but some are made just as I described above. Used to they were made on accident. Now they are made to have an advantage. They like to "carry that hunnered with me".

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__________________
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

quote:

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Originally posted by honalieh
So what happens when you get a 3 dog cast (2 silent, 1 open)? Do they vote 2-1 (majority) to minus the open dog? We've now given an advantage to the silent or semi-silent dog.

Now, in a 2 dog cast (the vote could be tied), so again no advantage to having an open trailer. We've now given the silent/semi-silent dog equal strike points to the one that actually opens when hitting a track.

Are we trying to eliminate an honest first strike dog? Eliminate open trailers in general? And, no, I've never hunted a babbler or even a consistent first strike dog.

Years back we largely solved the babbling problem by jumping first tree to 125. But, this was before every dog was treeing separate and by themselves.

To me, the bigger problem is that there is no advantage to having a 1st tree dog. 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tree dogs get the same points (if they tree separately). So that makes it so strike points can make the difference because they are all getting 1st tree points (whether they tree 1st or not).

I say call them struck as they strike (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th). Call them treed as they tree (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th). What about splits? I bump them up 25 points each on both strike and tree (additional 50 points possible---except there should always be a 25 point separation between 1st and 2nd, and we don't up points beyond 1st position---don't give 2nd strike as many strike points as 1st strike). In this way, we reward splitting, but not to the extent we currently have where 3rd and 4th tree dogs get just as many tree points as legitimate 1st tree dogs.

Play with this scenario, and you'll find it equalizes the field. Now, if a dog is a first strike dog, and legitimate 1st tree dog (1st to tree), you don't beat them. You're not supposed to. But, if a dog is a 1st strike dog (possible babbler), and 3rd or 4th tree dog (split), we can beat them, because in this scenario, 3rd and 4th tree dogs don't get 1st tree dog points.

So, deep and alone babbler gets 100 strike, 25 tree = 125 + 25 split tree points = 150. My 3rd strike, 1st tree dog gets 50 strike, 125 tree = 175 + 25 split strike points = 200. The babbler is not the problem, it's 2nd, 3rd, and 4th trees (when split) counting just as much as 1st trees that is the problem.

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Just do away with the babbling rule because it always causes a rukus in the woods. At times you light luck up and turn loose on a hot coon and all dogs will be opening up on the chain, you can't say they are babbling. I just believe this one should just go away. Can't prove one babbling and the handler want be honest so there you go having grown men arguing over something they can't control.

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Just do away with the babbling rule because it always causes a rukus in the woods. At times you might luck up and turn loose on a hot coon and all dogs will be opening up on the chain, you can't say they are babbling. I just believe this one should just go away. Can't prove one babbling and the handler want be honest so there you go having grown men arguing over something they can't control. I say if dog opens within the minute, give the dog or dogs 3 mins to open instead of 8 . If they don't open then minus accordingly. If dog or dogs open after the min then use the 8 min rule as it states.

__________________
Fitzko's Cracklin Thunder Kennels

Home of:
PR Fitzko's Hardwood Mighty Mouse

there was the three minute rule years ago on first turn loose then it got changed to present do the hunters even know what they want for sure it seems they have it one way for awhile then want to change it back.let go back to the three hour hunt and 100 first strike and100 first tree and 300 minus and your out the back door.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sox12
there was the three minute rule years ago on first turn loose then it got changed to present do the hunters even know what they want for sure it seems they have it one way for awhile then want to change it back.let go back to the three hour hunt and 100 first strike and100 first tree and 300 minus and your out the back door.

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__________________
The more laws a nation has the more corrupt the nation.

When the law of the land becomes unjust outlaws will rise to take their place in history.

Chuck

So it comes down to limited places to hunt is the reason for all the changes. Sounds like you need a different type of dog or a good shocking system.

__________________
Fitzko's Cracklin Thunder Kennels

Home of:
PR Fitzko's Hardwood Mighty Mouse

The whole idea of competition hunting should be viewed at from the lens of a hide hunter.

The dog that trees the most coons should win, unless it is minused for slick treeing, running trash, etc.

All split trees should be equal at 125 points. One coon isn't more valuable than the next is it? Then they should be equal.

Do away with strike points or make all strike points the same. You'll have your usual whiners that probably hunt booticks that will argue that finding a coon quicker deserves merit. Well, a true hide hunter would rather see more hides hanging on stretching boards.

Here is my idea, strike and tree points as follows:

Strike:
1st=100
2nd=100
3rd=100
4th=100

Tree:
1st:125
2nd:75
3rd:50
4th:25

One could also argue that tree positions 2-4 should all be 25 each. I'm good with that as well.

__________________
"If you ain't first, your Last!"

GrNiteCh CLEAR TIMBER CLASSY SASSY

quote:

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Originally posted by BooneMcCrary
The whole idea of competition hunting should be viewed at from the lens of a hide hunter.

The dog that trees the most coons should win, unless it is minused for slick treeing, running trash, etc.

All split trees should be equal at 125 points. One coon isn't more valuable than the next is it? Then they should be equal.

Do away with strike points or make all strike points the same. You'll have your usual whiners that probably hunt booticks that will argue that finding a coon quicker deserves merit. Well, a true hide hunter would rather see more hides hanging on stretching boards.

Here is my idea, strike and tree points as follows:

Strike:
1st=100
2nd=100
3rd=100
4th=100

Tree:
1st:125
2nd:75
3rd:50
4th:25

One could also argue that tree positions 2-4 should all be 25 each. I'm good with that as well.

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Hide hunters don't care which dog is the fastest. Comp hunters want to reward the fastest dog. Hide hunters only care about how many hides they have at the end of the night. Comp hunters want a dog that is quick and looks good doing it. Almost any dog can tree a coon but the top comp dogs should tree coons quick, fast and look/sound good doing it. Comp hunters compete against other dogs. Hide hunters only compete with themselves.

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Hide hunters don't care which dog is the fastest. Comp hunters want to reward the fastest dog. Hide hunters only care about how many hides they have at the end of the night. Comp hunters want a dog that is quick and looks good doing it. Almost any dog can tree a coon but the top comp dogs should tree coons quick, fast and look/sound good doing it.

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Richard, a true hide man and a pleasure hunter are not the same

We won big hunts with high scores back in the day with our hide dogs they hustled for 3 hrs non stop. And we wasent walking a mile to trees when they struck at our feet either. But the most common dog in ukc right now is that 100 strike 75 tree dog right now I understand how that game and most that don’t like the new rules do to.


Tar

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
We won big hunts with high scores back in the day with our hide dogs they hustled for 3 hrs non stop. And we wasent walking a mile to trees when they struck at our feet either. But the most common dog in ukc right now is that 100 strike 75 tree dog right now I understand how that game and most that don’t like the new rules do to.


Tar

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Pleasure hunters have fun. Coonhunting is a job for hide hunters. Tarbaby, everybody knows now that you just post to stir up trouble. You don't really even believe what you post. You even told us that you just "play possum" or make stuff up. And now you call or text other people and try to get them to do the same thing to "stir the board up".

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Pleasure hunters have fun. Coonhunting is a job for hide hunters. Tarbaby, everybody knows now that you just post to stir up trouble. You don't really even believe what you post. You even told us that you just "play possum" or make stuff up. And now you call or text other people and try to get them to do the same thing to "stir the board up".

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Hide hunters don't care which dog is the fastest. Comp hunters want to reward the fastest dog. Hide hunters only care about how many hides they have at the end of the night. Comp hunters want a dog that is quick and looks good doing it. Almost any dog can tree a coon but the top comp dogs should tree coons quick, fast and look/sound good doing it. Comp hunters compete against other dogs. Hide hunters only compete with themselves.

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__________________
"If you ain't first, your Last!"

GrNiteCh CLEAR TIMBER CLASSY SASSY

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Pleasure hunters have fun. Coonhunting is a job for hide hunters. Tarbaby, everybody knows now that you just post to stir up trouble. You don't really even believe what you post. You even told us that you just "play possum" or make stuff up. And now you call or text other people and try to get them to do the same thing to "stir the board up".

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Everybody needs a little backup every now and then but I can't argue with anything else since you are a much better hunter, trainer, handler than I am.