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-- ? minus or delete (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928534790)


Posted by las123 on 11-29-2020 02:08 PM:

? minus or delete

my question 3 dog cast a,d,c strike in that order dog a,and c treeded..go in to score tree after the shine time is over dog d comes into tree as soon as shine time expires.no coon was seen dog a,c where minus.dog d was never declaired treed as they where still handled a,c. does dog d get strike deleted or minused


Posted by Rip on 11-29-2020 04:13 PM:

Re: ? minus or delete

quote:
Originally posted by las123
my question 3 dog cast a,d,c strike in that order dog a,and c treeded..go in to score tree after the shine time is over dog d comes into tree as soon as shine time expires.no coon was seen dog a,c where minus.dog d was never declaired treed as they where still handled a,c. does dog d get strike deleted or minused


Neither. It's circled.

Rule 5b under circle and deleted points

"(b) No dog to receive minus points for coming into tree
after Judge arrives unless a coon is seen and the
dogs treeing are awarded plus points."

That was in the circle section.

The dog came into the tree after the judge arrived and no dogs treeing got plus points so it is circled.

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Posted by las123 on 11-29-2020 08:54 PM:

minus

what about on page 53 3e..dog that are shut out must still be decleared struck they are egiible tree points if they are decleared struck.if they are shut out on when judge arrives strike are delated ..[HERE IS THIS PART]for all other situations they are accountable for their strike points


Posted by pamjohnson on 11-29-2020 09:20 PM:

Re: minus

quote:
Originally posted by las123
what about on page 53 3e..dog that are shut out must still be decleared struck they are egiible tree points if they are decleared struck.if they are shut out on when judge arrives strike are delated ..[HERE IS THIS PART]for all other situations they are accountable for their strike points
d was struck in before a and c was treed


Posted by Rip on 11-30-2020 12:33 AM:

Re: minus

quote:
Originally posted by las123
what about on page 53 3e..dog that are shut out must still be decleared struck they are egiible tree points if they are decleared struck.if they are shut out on when judge arrives strike are delated ..[HERE IS THIS PART]for all other situations they are accountable for their strike points


I can see how some of this can get confusing but that is a completely different rule for a completely different situation.

"Shut Out" means shut out on strike, meaning the dog was not struck in before the other dog treed. I can see how that is confusing as well but in UKC shut out means shut out on strike not tree.

The dog in your post wasn't shut out because he was struck in with the rest of the dogs. He came in after the judge arrived to a tree that didn't get plussed.

The rule is very specific if the dog comes in to a tree after the judge arrives then unless the tree is plussed the dog gets his strike circled.

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Posted by Daniel Fitzko on 11-30-2020 01:12 PM:

dog D

Deleted. You don't circle strike points on a dead tree

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Posted by River Birch Run on 11-30-2020 02:04 PM:

Did the dog show treed? When and why was he handled? As soon as shine time was up or cast agreed on the scoring of the tree it becomes a previously scored tree. Dog should have been declared treed before being handled and points deleted. If the dog never showed and was never treed he should have been minuesd his strike points for quiting the track. If he came into the cast.

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Posted by Jack Bingham on 11-30-2020 03:19 PM:

If the shine time was dead and dog came into tree strike is deleted.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-30-2020 03:38 PM:

Does the rule say "show treed" or just "comes into tree"? According to UKC's interpretation, tree is not scored until handled dogs are released. You may not agree with it and a lot of people don't but that is the rule.
And strike points are only deleted in UKC when dogs are trailing when hunt time expires.


Posted by Allen / UKC on 11-30-2020 04:20 PM:

Rip copied the applicable rule and is the one that applies to the scenario. Any other "what if's" are a moot point and make no difference.


5(b) applies to any and all dogs that come in AFTER THE JUDGE ARRIVES. 5(b), 5(b), 5(b) every time, every day. THE only time the dog does not get circled is if there is a coon seen and the dogs treeing are awarded plus; as specifically noted in 5(b).

Deleted points are for scenarios outlined in 5(e) through 5(i).


Posted by Dave Richards on 11-30-2020 08:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Rip copied the applicable rule and is the one that applies to the scenario. Any other "what if's" are a moot point and make no difference.


5(b) applies to any and all dogs that come in AFTER THE JUDGE ARRIVES. 5(b), 5(b), 5(b) every time, every day. THE only time the dog does not get circled is if there is a coon seen and the dogs treeing are awarded plus; as specifically noted in 5(b).

Deleted points are for scenarios outlined in 5(e) through 5(i).



Lol. It's simply amazing that some folks CAN NOT accept the Truth or the CORRECT RULE, but instead complicate matters by trying to apply a different RULE. Folks these RULES are NOT rocket science, do not over think them. Dave

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Posted by River Birch Run on 12-01-2020 01:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
Lol. It's simply amazing that some folks CAN NOT accept the Truth or the CORRECT RULE, but instead complicate matters by trying to apply a different RULE. Folks these RULES are NOT rocket science, do not over think them. Dave


Because details are important. If dogs were being lead away from the tree
and the dog came into the cast and not the tree they scored it changes everything. How many times have you seen judges yell at a handler to handle his dog when it comes in the area of the tree being scored when the dog never came to the cast or the tree? Heck they would get mad at me because I only needed to take 2 steps to recast my dog off a scored tree.

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Posted by Rip on 12-01-2020 02:01 AM:

It doesn't matter if the dog shows treed (remember all dogs at the tree MUST be leashed you can't even wait and see if he wants to tree), doesn't matter if shine time is up and the tree is dead if we are still there and the dog comes in then it catches a break and gets its strike circled. It's written very straight forward.

Did the dog get to the tree after the judge arrived and was the tree plussed. Nothing else matters.

This rule is why as soon as a tree is scored I move the cast away from the tree to listen.

Then we are not still "at" the tree and if the dog comes in then it is coming into the cast, not the tree and no arguments break out. (I move far enough away that they can't say we are still "at" the tree.)

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Posted by River Birch Run on 12-01-2020 04:03 PM:

This rule is why as soon as a tree is scored I move the cast away from the tree to listen.

Then we are not still "at" the tree and if the dog comes in then it is coming into the cast, not the tree and no arguments break out. (I move far enough away that they can't say we are still "at" the tree.) [/B][/QUOTE]

That was the point I was making rather they were at the tree or leading away.

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Posted by jay brademeyer on 12-01-2020 04:15 PM:

Delete

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Posted by Allen / UKC on 12-01-2020 05:02 PM:

That was the point I was making rather they were at the tree or leading away. [/B][/QUOTE]

The original question included the statement "dog d comes into tree as soon as shine time expires". To me this suggests they were still at the tree because shine time doesn't typically continue to run after you walk away from the tree. In fairness to your question, the poster did also state "after the tree was scored, followed by dog d comes in etc".

Yes, minute details are often important but it's because of that statement that I was referring to when stating nothing else matters. The poster would need to clarify if in fact they were not still at the tree because then it might be considered a previously scored tree and points would be deleted for Dog D.

Also, even though shine time has expired, Rule 5(b) continues to take precedence over "previously scored tree" until the cast has left the scored tree or is in the act of walking away with the scored dog(s). To clarify further; if the cast is in the act of leading dogs away, only then is 5(b) no longer relative and it does become a previously scored tree.


Posted by las123 on 12-01-2020 05:13 PM:

minus

thanks for all the responses.judge said shine time expires and calls for a vote while voting dog d comes in to tree


Posted by Allen / UKC on 12-01-2020 06:08 PM:

Re: minus

quote:
Originally posted by las123
thanks for all the responses.judge said shine time expires and calls for a vote while voting dog d comes in to tree



5(b). Circle strike for Dog D.


Posted by River Birch Run on 12-02-2020 02:43 PM:

Thank you Allen.

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