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- Treeing Walkers (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=52)
-- The Clover Bloodline (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=171346)


Posted by Laura Bell on 10-07-2007 12:52 AM:

The Clover Bloodline

The pup I just bought has some of old Clover back in her pedigree and I'm trying to find out all I can about her lines and stuff.
I know Clover really impacted the Walker breed, but what all can you guys tell me about him and his line of pups? I searched on here and found some good reading material, but looking for more if anyone has anything to share about it.

Thank a lot!
Laura

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Posted by jackback on 10-07-2007 03:50 AM:

Most Clover dogs are easily noticed... they are UGLY!


Posted by Oak Ridge on 10-07-2007 02:47 PM:

Re: The Clover Bloodline

quote:
Originally posted by Camopup
The pup I just bought has some of old Clover back in her pedigree and I'm trying to find out all I can about her lines and stuff.
I know Clover really impacted the Walker breed, but what all can you guys tell me about him and his line of pups? I searched on here and found some good reading material, but looking for more if anyone has anything to share about it.

Thank a lot!
Laura



Laura,

I might be able to answer your questions...but you will have to be a little more explicit with the questions. What is it you want to know?

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Home of Oak Ridge Kennels


Posted by Travis Brown on 10-07-2007 04:31 PM:

Are Stylish Harry dogs the same type of dogs as the Clover dogs?

I noticed Harry's mother was a littermate to Stylish Clover.


Posted by Oak Ridge on 10-07-2007 05:24 PM:

Travis,

I've never owned a Harry dog....so I could not say. I have hunted with a few, and I would say "no", not in general.

The Harry dogs were bred for color as well as for ability, and in doing so I would think that some traits were separated.

Most Harry dogs are Tan headed, blanket backed dogs....VERY FEW clover dogs are....

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Posted by Sandman on 10-07-2007 05:58 PM:

Isn't Joker's mom Harry bred?


Posted by JAY WASHBURN on 10-07-2007 09:52 PM:

Clover and Harry

Never hunted w/ Sty Harry or Whitey,hunted w/ alot of there offspring and got to hunt alittle w/ Ole Chirpee.Seen alot of "UGLY" dogs out of both,but I would say there tree style and Harry seemed to throw some super hyper dogs made them alittle different.On average I would say the Clover dogs have more track than tree,med to wide hunters,good track mouths,but you will get some bawl mouth treedogs and tended to chew/mark the trees they were on and seem more inclined to bounce on a tree alittle.They also good about having coons when you tree.

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Posted by on 10-07-2007 10:33 PM:

There is a difference between Stylish Clover (Whitey) and Clover. And a difference in Stylish Harry dogs compared other Clover hounds.
I've hunted with lots of Wild Casey dogs and a few Stylish Harry grandpups. Big difference in the dogs.


Posted by Oak Ridge on 10-07-2007 11:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Sandman
Isn't Joker's mom Harry bred?


Yes,

I never got the pleasure of hunting with her though...so I don't know what she was like.

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Posted by Laura Bell on 10-08-2007 02:52 PM:

Thanks for the replies!

I'm just trying to find out all I can about Clover. Couple questions that I'm looking to answer are,

What Traits do you guys see in his line?

&

What makes his line popular?


Oak Ridge, I'll be sending you a PM later today, Thanks!

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 10-08-2007 03:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Camopup
Thanks for the replies!

I'm just trying to find out all I can about Clover. Couple questions that I'm looking to answer are,

What Traits do you guys see in his line?

&

What makes his line popular?


Oak Ridge, I'll be sending you a PM later today, Thanks!



Camopup,

I'll be looking for your PM.

Here is what I see in the "Clover" line.

Clover was a reproducer of coon dogs. They were not necessarily considered "pretty", but they were balanced coon dogs. You will see and hear different people say that they are "more track than tree"....I don't believe that is true...they are BALANCED. The walker breed as a whole went through a transformation several years ago, and the emphasis was put on making tree dogs. Somewhere along the lines someone decided that 140 barks per minute was the goal, and there was a little less emphasis put on having a coon in the tree.

I believe that the guys that were looking for balance still come back to the Clover line of dogs. Just try to find a good Clover female for sale.....you know why you have to search high and low for one....BALANCE. Today's walker breeders now have the 140 barks a minute, get treed every 15 minute dogs that are getting the reputation of not being very accurate. It's losing a little of it's luster, and now they are looking to breed more balance back into the hard tree dogs that are tan headed and blanket backed.

Much of the "slick treeing walker" sensation is based upon a couple of problems. #1. We changed the way we bred dogs in trying to get a good tree dog but we did not change the way we TRAIN dogs that are born with a ton of natural treeing instinct. We are still draggin hot dogs, coon tails, hides, and hanging up caged coon to get our natural born tree dogs to tree.....and that they do They TREE!
#2. When we started breeding for tree dogs, we lost the trait that made Walker dogs what they used to be, the ability to track. A good deal of the slick treeing issue with Walkers today is the inability to move a track. We start teaching puppies early on to "get hooked", and then we feed the adrenaline rush that comes along with treeing hard......so when a young dog can no longer move a track...the do the next best thing....TREE, and we come along, make excuses about not being able to find the coon with our 28 Volt lights, and we scratch them behind the ears, and saddle pat them.....

Back to the Clover line. They may not tree 140 barks per minute, they many not be easy to look at....but normally they are balanced hounds that trail a coon to the tree...not much for gambling on which tree it might be in, they tree, but not many are "blow down" tree dogs....and most importantly, they only tree when there is a coon.

The start as early and easily as any of the other lines of Walkers, but they don't mature as fast. Don't give up on your Clover pup until it's old enough to get good at trailing. Barking up a tree is EASY...trailing a track that is several hours old through the dust, or swamp takes practice.....

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Posted by on 10-08-2007 04:14 PM:

Clover dogs tend to be a bit "ugly" as in black and white in color and black headed. Often a lot of white which I think comes from Bozo. They tend to be ticked up as well which probably comes from a touch of bluetick in there somewhere.

They tend to be independant to extremely independant, accurate, stay put tree dogs.

In my opinion, a few years back it seemed a lot of lines of Walkers were still very track minded and some lines were extremely junky on fast game. I think Clover helped change that. Clover made a huge impact on the breed. Lots of the All Grand pedigrees show Clover a ways back, lots of the old lines also show Clover in there somewhere too. Clover was a reproducer as were his most famous sons, Wild Casey & Tony's Wild Clover, and Stylish Clover. Not sure about Stylish Clover but I know Clover and Casey seemed to cross well on any line of dog.

In my opinion, a good balanced track & tree,older blooded dog such as Finley River, House, or Yadkin River crossed on a Clover blooded dog seems to produce good track dogs and accurate stay put tree dogs that tend to split tree. Just my opinions.


Posted by on 10-08-2007 04:14 PM:

Joe beat me to it.


Posted by Tiffany Ealy on 10-08-2007 06:38 PM:

hi

camo pup this is tiffany Clover is from my country and i don't believe,But out of 17 dogs in my kennel 16 have clover in their pedigree{the 17 is black headed but is a jack russell} it is true clover dogs mostly have black head and beauty is in the eye of the beholder*but ugly is only in the color boys not in the confrimation! I saw some one ask about stylish Harry excuse me boys but I am only 14 years old and clover is before my time. but Timothy Ball has enough pedigrees posted in enough books read them close clover on one side and logan on the other littermate boys how much more clover do you want!
second question I saw some one thinks the black head comes from Hardwood Bozo well probally true being black is suppose to be domiant and clover was directly out of bozo.*but Harry-king-rebel-Hammer we're all full brothers but i know hammer was red and white headed and he thru a lot of pretty colored hounds,so who knows but you want to know about clover get a hold of Mr Lee Logan* thanks good luck with your new dog

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Posted by JAY WASHBURN on 10-08-2007 06:55 PM:

Re: hi

quote:
Originally posted by Tiffany62193

second question I saw some one thinks the black head comes from Hardwood Bozo well probally true being black is suppose to be domiant and clover was directly out of bozo.*but Harry-king-rebel-Hammer we're all full brothers but i know hammer was red and white headed and he thru a lot of pretty colored hounds,so who knows but you want to know about clover get a hold of Mr Lee Logan* thanks good luck with your new dog



Alot of the black and white comes from the Logan/
Lone Pine breeding,the Bozo put alot of the ticks,calico ears,white eyes in there.

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Posted by C. Beyer on 10-08-2007 06:57 PM:

Did? the blue eyes came from Queen

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Posted by JAY WASHBURN on 10-08-2007 07:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by C. Beyer
Did? the blue eyes came from Queen

Yes !

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Posted by Melanie H. on 10-08-2007 07:10 PM:

Just a question... I have a Clover bred pup and she has this tiny thin pencil head... Is that comman? It seems that most I see have these big blocky heads....

Here is the link to her pedigree (sorry too lazy to write it all down)

http://www.outwesthounds.com/PEDBETTY.html

Here is a picture taken about 3 months ago.. I think she was 5 months old.. She has a big frame.. Just a really thin head and little eyes



Sorry not the best photo...

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Posted by on 10-08-2007 07:21 PM:

Most Wild Casey dogs I've seen are stocky built, blocky headed dogs. I've never seen a calico eared, blue eyed, Casey dog except one that was double Casey up close. I think she had a calico ear. Most of these traits I've seen come from the Stylish Clover side.


Posted by miller261 on 10-09-2007 12:55 AM:

any pics out there

any pics of old clover


Posted by hellcat on 10-09-2007 01:16 AM:

Clover dogs

For what it's worth
I have seen some really good tracking ability from the Clover dogs. I have been impressed by more than one of them. Most were Tough dogs. I like them.
Jess

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Posted by travis gideon on 10-09-2007 01:27 AM:

Joe has told the truth and I agree with all he has said, after all, Joe is the Clover connection

I bet if Joe could keep all the other stuff "coondog" and just add the 140 bpm he would

It is a good line of walker and if you like balance and looking at a coon when you get to the tree stick with it! Different strokes for different fokes and it's your training and your time if you like that stick with it you more then likely won't be disapointed!

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Posted by on 10-09-2007 03:53 AM:

Personally, I'll never feed a Walker at my place that isn't Clover blooded.
Yes, most Clover dogs are good balanced track and tree dogs but I think they're tracking ability is overlooked due to that fact that they are more known for the ability to get split treed and have the meat.


Posted by walkercash on 10-09-2007 05:19 AM:

Re: any pics out there

quote:
Originally posted by miller261
any pics of old clover

Oops I read it wrong. Good call Joe

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 10-09-2007 05:20 AM:

Re: any pics out there

quote:
Originally posted by miller261
any pics of old clover




Logan's Wild Clover

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