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-- Question for officials and avid competition hunters over non hunting dogs (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928504637)


Posted by Jaret carlile on 05-22-2018 11:17 PM:

Question for officials and avid competition hunters over non hunting dogs

Scenario: dog isn't hunting 15 is working on the dog the other dogs are treeing coons every time we go to a tree dog is handled coon is seen and 15 is broke there is no rule that I can find addressing this situation.

I think there should be a rule to mark dog for next available strike and minus for non hunting and being handled at a tree with coon seen what do you guys think???


Posted by yadkintar on 05-22-2018 11:27 PM:

If he is not treeing why are you handling him plus he don't seem like the type I would be worried about.




Tar


Posted by Jaret carlile on 05-22-2018 11:47 PM:

The dog doesn't show treed till after the fact and let's say it had 500+ from the first three dumps then wouldn't hunt mainly I wanna see how many guys are running into these situations I've seen it a few time here lately


Posted by JiM on 05-22-2018 11:52 PM:

Tar, if the dog walks into the tree, it is "at the tree" and must be handled as per rule 11(b).
However, I don't believe being handled at a tree breaks the 15, it just stops it and is restarted when dogs are recast. If you stop the 15 minute clock at 7:15, you restart it at 7:15 when the dog is recast. Allen has posted on that one before and has written it up in the Advisor.

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.


Posted by Jaret carlile on 05-22-2018 11:58 PM:

Thanks Everyone might look into specifieing these situations in the rules that way judges and hunters alike can determine the right way to handle things possibly under non hunting dogs...


Posted by Richard Lambert on 05-22-2018 11:58 PM:

The 15 is not "broke". The rule states 15 consecutive minutes so you stop the time while he is handled and start it back at the next drop as soon as he is turned loose.
But if you have to minus a dog that won't go hunting in order to beat him then you have a problem.


Posted by Jaret carlile on 05-23-2018 12:01 AM:

lol I like to score the dog on performance and ability to achieve the task at hand not if I'm going to win or not non hunting dogs shouldn't win


Posted by Billy Beckham on 05-23-2018 12:04 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
The 15 is not "broke". The rule states 15 consecutive minutes so you stop the time while he is handled and start it back at the next drop as soon as he is turned loose.
But if you have to minus a dog that won't go hunting in order to beat him then you have a problem.




If time is stopped and restarted that ends the consecutive part of your timer.

__________________
Billy Beckham
618-214-0065


PKC CH, GRNITECH Beckham's Hillbilly Bones


Posted by yadkintar on 05-23-2018 12:09 AM:

Jim if he was on the tree yes but if he was just wandering around in the vicinity I am going to let that clock run on him long as I can. Then if he comes into the tree I will stop the time and restart at the time I stopped it he don't hunt he is scratched.



Tar


Posted by Jaret carlile on 05-23-2018 12:15 AM:

Misjudgments happen we don't have all of this mapped out in the rule book I see guys take minuses all the time through improper enforcement of rules that's why I think this situation should be addressed thanks for commenting


Posted by Joe Moore on 05-23-2018 12:42 AM:

That one is pretty straight forward as Jim eluded to.

__________________
Joe Moore
-2003 UKC Youth National Bench Show Champion
-2003 PKC Youth World Top 8
-2004 PKC Youth World Hunt, 3rd place
-2005 UKC PA State Overall Show Champion
-2007 UKC Youh National Hunt, 3rd place

-PKC Silver Ch, GRNTCH 'pr' Tree Stalkins Stylish Striker


Posted by Jaret carlile on 05-23-2018 12:51 AM:

Thank you it was misjudgememt on my part now I know how to handle non hunting dogs


Posted by JiM on 05-23-2018 12:58 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Billy Beckham
If time is stopped and restarted that ends the consecutive part of your timer.


I may be mistaken but I think you are wrong on that. Stopping the hunt clock doesn't break the 15.

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.


Posted by Rip on 05-23-2018 01:22 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
I may be mistaken but I think you are wrong on that. Stopping the hunt clock doesn't break the 15.


I do think you are BOTH right just at different times LOL.

If I remember correctly it USED to be that it restarted the clock and so did moving, time out etc.

But I am pretty sure they addressed this due to people wanting to "move" after 14 minutes had elapsed and they changed it to be consecutive scorecard minutes or something like that and just restarted the clock once time was back in.

Jim is also right in that all dogs at the tree MUST be handled, there is no leeway here. If it is there you don't have the option of leaving it unhandled it has to be handled or you are scratched.

__________________
Let's go huntin


Posted by yadkintar on 05-23-2018 01:29 AM:

Rip if it's not showing treed do you walk out there 15 ft and get it ? Not me clock is running till he touches that tree.


Posted by Rip on 05-23-2018 01:58 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Rip if it's not showing treed do you walk out there 15 ft and get it ? Not me clock is running till he touches that tree.


If it comes in to the tree whether it shows treed or takes a leak it MUST be leashed. There is no other option allowed by the rules.

__________________
Let's go huntin


Posted by yadkintar on 05-23-2018 02:12 AM:

Read me the rule where you handle the dog clearly off the tree.


Tar


Posted by Rip on 05-23-2018 02:14 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Read me the rule where you handle the dog clearly off the tree.


Tar



Read me where I said anything other than a dog at the tree?

"8(b) After Arriving At Tree. After five minutes, first
dog’s tree may be scored. Dog should not be
minused tree points if he comes back a short
distance to meet handler if dog goes back in
and trees satisfactorily. Dogs at tree MUST be
leashed..........."

That's exactly what the rule says, all dogs at the tree (this means whether up on the tree or not) MUST be handled.

If he's there he has to have a lead put on him.

__________________
Let's go huntin


Posted by yadkintar on 05-23-2018 02:26 AM:

Like I said if he ain't on that tree clock is still running I ain't gonna go out there and get him to stop the clock he might wander off and the time get him while we are shining the tree. I seen guys try and find a reason to get their hands on their dog to stop the clock like I hear a car coming oh my goodness he is in danger judge I am really concerned. Your dog hunts the whole two hours when I judge no wooooosing out jmo.



Tar


Posted by Rip on 05-23-2018 02:29 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Like I said if he ain't on that tree clock is still running I ain't gonna go out there and get him to stop the clock he might wander off and the time get him while we are shining the tree. I seen guys try and find a reason to get their hands on their dog to stop the clock like I hear a car coming oh my goodness he is in danger judge I am really concerned. Your dog hunts the whole two hours when I judge no wooooosing out jmo.



Tar



I understand but the rules don't allow you to do that. If he is "at" the tree (doesn't say showing or on, if he is just there) he MUST be leashed.

That's why they changed the rule and the clock starts back when you next unleash him but if it has already used 14 minutes then it only has 1 minute to go next time.

You are right they USED to use it to break it, and any other excuse but that's why they changed the rule to keep that from happening.

__________________
Let's go huntin


Posted by yadkintar on 05-23-2018 02:37 AM:

There is a difference of at the tree and at the tree !! How far would you let a dog be off the tree before you would minuse it if it is far enough to be minused for being off the tree it is to far to be handled and stop the time jmo.




Tar


Posted by JiM on 05-23-2018 03:22 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
There is a difference of at the tree and at the tree !! How far would you let a dog be off the tree before you would minuse it if it is far enough to be minused for being off the tree it is to far to be handled and stop the time jmo.




Tar


There yah go. I think that would be a good way to judge it. Whether to handle or not is up to the judge and another one of those judgement calls.

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.


Posted by H. L. Meyer on 05-23-2018 03:23 AM:

Well I'm gona chime in

Just wonder how many people are citing things they believe are correct from memory or hear say verses citing things from the rule book that they have with them. some times a comma or a period makes a whole lot of difference. Better than that how many people even have a rule book to refer to and better than that a current one.

__________________
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Posted by Rip on 05-23-2018 03:54 AM:

Re: Well I'm gona chime in

quote:
Originally posted by H. L. Meyer
Just wonder how many people are citing things they believe are correct from memory or hear say verses citing things from the rule book that they have with them. some times a comma or a period makes a whole lot of difference. Better than that how many people even have a rule book to refer to and better than that a current one.


I know you are saying in general but mine is from the rule book, if I'm not sure then I say so as I did above with the way it used to be (memory is all we have) and the way I think they changed it to with regards to just putting the clock on hold as opposed to restarting it as in the past.

But as you can see on the leash thing I quoted the book word for word, Jim did too.

__________________
Let's go huntin


Posted by yadkintar on 05-23-2018 11:27 AM:

Re: Well I'm gona chime in

quote:
Originally posted by H. L. Meyer
Just wonder how many people are citing things they believe are correct from memory or hear say verses citing things from the rule book that they have with them. some times a comma or a period makes a whole lot of difference. Better than that how many people even have a rule book to refer to and better than that a current one.



HL got pretty much the same rules I started out with over 40 yrs ago I have looked at them till I am almost cross eyed. The rules are in black and white we just have interpretation issues. The most valuable thing I was taught early by some of the greatest coonhunters I ever known most are all gone now was how to be a firm but fair judge here is the unwritten rules they taught me.


1. Just call only your dog.
2. Take your minus without being asked.
3.always find each other's coon.
4.conduct yourself as a grownup even when it's against your better judgment.
5.be a firm but fair judge treat everybody the same.


Tar


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