UKC Forums - Here is something chew on

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-- Here is something chew on (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928520252)

Posted by Nathan Phenix on 07-18-2019 11:34 PM:

Here is something chew on

Havent given this much thought. But if you took a cast out and had hunt held under current ukc rules. But had a judge score using all the proposed rule changes and a judge score using Pkc rules and a judge using ukc rules from 25 years ago. Would it be different dogs win the cast or same. Just wonder how often the rules being changed actually changes the out come of winner. Seems must changes are just make hunt runs smoother. But to many smoother rules ends up just making a mess.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 07-19-2019 12:06 AM:

A lot of rule changes have been made in the last 15 years. Are the hunts better now than they used to be? Have the rule changes helped the hunts?

Posted by Sgraves on 07-19-2019 12:33 AM:

Now if someone could come up with a format to where a cast of dogs could be judged without a handler being involved things would get interesting. Chew on that.

Posted by HOBO on 07-19-2019 12:34 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
A lot of rule changes have been made in the last 15 years. Are the hunts better now than they used to be? Have the rule changes helped the hunts?

Noooooooooooooooooooooo

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Posted by yadkintar on 07-19-2019 01:01 AM:

Those that only hunt at the local level in ukc wouldn’t know.

There is a whole new world out there and when they come to play over here it’s a mess.

And they are coming !!

Tar

Posted by CHEWBACH on 07-19-2019 02:42 AM:

the garmin rule has helped a lot dogs win today! under the old rules they would only win about 50% less of there hunts

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Posted by Rick St.Clair on 07-19-2019 02:56 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by CHEWBACH
the garmin rule has helped a lot dogs win today! under the old rules they would only win about 50% less of there hunts

Way less then 50% road running idiots would have been culled.

Posted by CHEWBACH on 07-19-2019 03:01 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rick St.Clair
Way less then 50% road running idiots would have been culled.

absolutely. lot of the big winners

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 07-19-2019 07:55 AM:

Let's go back and think about changes...
*Shortened shine time down to 8 minutes from 10 - affect more time for hunting. Negative less time when leaves are on.
*More time for squalling at trees after 3 min instead of 7 - affect 5 minutes to shine as apposed to the old way of the last 3 - affect more likely to find coons. (Should be immediately as in new proposal, if it truly is going to pull dogs why did they allow it ever)
*Not scratched for birds - affect got rid of a scratching rule, birds live in trees.
*Not scratched for squirrels in refuge trees - affect got rid of a scratching rule, coons push squirrels out of dens and nest.
*Shortened time on time out for walking between trees when all dogs are treed down to 10 from 15 - affect the clock is running more.
*Removal of time out because you want to move when dogs are on trail - affect the dog who may be kicking butt can no longer be forced to move spots by rest of the cast. Negative sometimes you just want to move spots and time out scenarios do not fit unless they are all on leash, now all time puts are delete points (If ever put back into play should be unanimous vote to move and minus)
*Saved by the judge for coming in after cast arrives - affect CH cast dogs that have molested off game and dogs that have quit their track and came into handler are not held accountable. Rule change in the proposals to eliminate this rule.
*Allowance of hunt directors - affect many clubs have stayed afloat by not having to hire a MOH. Some say a downfall by having panels to hear questions, some say benefit. The nay sayers seem to forget that if you are not satisfied with a MOH decision you may appeal to a panel (ironic for all the fuss by some) so all this did was cut out the middle man and save many clubs $. When not satisfied with either you can still go to UKC to appeal your question.
*Plus point cast wins (UKC) - affect padding scorecards and drawing the right best guide are no longer in play. Except the semi-final round of World hunt and large events (something that needs a look at).
*More cast wins for titles (UKC) - affect need to go to more hunts for to title which makes sense with cast win change. Positive for clubs on participation in higher club # areas. Negative for those in low club # areas.
*GRNITE & CH combined cast (UKC) - affect they have always hunted under same rules now less guides needed in instances of being able to combine cast. GRNITES can now achieve additional titles, benefit in recognition.
*Allowance of clubs holding more slam events (UKC) - affect hunters have a chance of earning their entry and gas $ back. Negative clubs may not make as much money. Positive, they can choose the type that fits their area and hunters.
*Double headers (UKC) - affect, can gain 2 wins in one night. Clubs can choose this format if it fits their area. One hour hunt doesn't require the ground that 2 does.

Garmin - affect -The game changer! This has been the single biggest change in the coonhunting world and has single handedly gave the handler an advantage not given before. Terrain maps allow the handler knowledge of the area they are hunting. Which direction and location of dog is, which direction to head to on the 8. When a dog is treed. The positive is that MANY dogs lives have been saved by this technology. Though they have changed the competition world very few would ever turn a dog loose without out it.

We can go on back farther to 3 hour hunts and non-hunting judges for all cast. Many barely make it for hour long hunts and clubs no longer could provide for non-hunting judges.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 07-19-2019 01:10 PM:

Jen, you forgot to add that on all of those rule changes you have given a greater advantage to the deep and lonely style dog. So that is all that we are going to end up with. I can't believe that you forgot to mention that.

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 07-19-2019 05:14 PM:

Richard you are getting crazier by the day. The only change that really affected anyone is the Garmin and it has gave a handler advantage to those hunting all types and abilities of dogs.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 07-19-2019 06:29 PM:

It must be the heat. I guess that it has fried my brain.

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 07-19-2019 08:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
It must be the heat. I guess that it has fried my brain.

The heat may exasperate the problem but may not be the main cause 😉.

So let's go back 3 hour hunts with a non-hunting judge for every cast, hire a MOH for every hunt, 10 minute shine time, squall after 7 minutes, 15 minutes of hunt time used before timeout can be called when walking to treed dogs, no Garmin, scratch for a squirel that came out of a den and previous win format It will just draw hunters like flies!
Seriously is that what y'all think is what appeals to hunters??? Because those are the changes that have been made. No serious changes aside from the using GPS have affected jack diddly squat.

Posted by yadkintar on 07-19-2019 08:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
The heat may exasperate the problem but may not be the main cause 😉.

So let's go back 3 hour hunts with a non-hunting judge for every cast, hire a MOH for every hunt, 10 minute shine time, squall after 7 minutes, 15 minutes of hunt time used before timeout can be called when walking to treed dogs, no Garmin, scratch for a squirel that came out of a den and previous win format It will just draw hunters like flies!
Seriously is that what y'all think is what appeals to hunters??? Because those are the changes that have been made. No serious changes aside from the using GPS have affected jack diddly squat.

Ahh brings back so many fond memories !!!

When the men were men and the dogs were coondogs and the coons were nervous lol.

Tarbaby

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 07-19-2019 08:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Ahh brings back so many fond memories !!!

When the men were men and the dogs were coondogs and the coons were nervous lol.

Tarbaby

Tar most don't want to walk across the street they couldn't make it for 3 hours!

Posted by yadkintar on 07-19-2019 08:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Tar most don't want to walk across the street they couldn't make it for 3 hours!

Yes but we hunted it all in the same spot. If we got a mile from the truck they hunted every inch of it. And you didn’t see coons setting up behind them either. But a deer race could ruin the whole thing because we had no way to stop it and if they went out of hearing you had no Garmin to tell you where to find them.

One hour is enough for me now. Two in the fall when it’s cool !! Three shoot no I ain’t going.

Tarbaby

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 07-19-2019 08:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Ahh brings back so many fond memories !!!

When the men were men and the dogs were coondogs and the coons were nervous lol.

Tarbaby

Were you daydreaming of unspoken adjusting time again. Sometimes between the dogs sometimes between the handlers lol.

Posted by Dave Richards on 07-19-2019 08:57 PM:

Jen Cummings

Jen, you are a bubble buster, you give them straight up facts about the changes and bust their bubble of misconception of how bad all these changes have been. Nothing like a good dose of reality to stir up those dwelling on heaps of misconception. You know that some folks just can not handle the truth, they are more comfortable believing an untruth. Lol. Dave P. S. I love bubble busters, I do not like untruths.

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Posted by yadkintar on 07-19-2019 08:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Were you daydreaming of unspoken adjusting time again. Sometimes between the dogs sometimes between the handlers lol.

What happened in the woods stayed in the woods lol.

Tar

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 07-19-2019 10:45 PM:

Re: Jen Cummings

Tar I hear it was like Vegas lol!

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
Jen, you are a bubble buster, you give them straight up facts about the changes and bust their bubble of misconception of how bad all these changes have been. Nothing like a good dose of reality to stir up those dwelling on heaps of misconception. You know that some folks just can not handle the truth, they are more comfortable believing an untruth. Lol. Dave P. S. I love bubble busters, I do not like untruths.

They seem to have this anti-change but other than the creation of GPS for dogs and kennel clubs allow their use not one person can point to a single change made in the past that really had any affect on much at all. These very same people are not going to turn their dog loose without one.

Posted by stevwallace on 07-19-2019 10:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
The heat may exasperate the problem but may not be the main cause 😉.

So let's go back 3 hour hunts with a non-hunting judge for every cast, hire a MOH for every hunt, 10 minute shine time, squall after 7 minutes, 15 minutes of hunt time used before timeout can be called when walking to treed dogs, no Garmin, scratch for a squirel that came out of a den and previous win format It will just draw hunters like flies!
Seriously is that what y'all think is what appeals to hunters??? Because those are the changes that have been made. No serious changes aside from the using GPS have affected jack diddly squat.

Not heard that one in long time.lol

Posted by pamjohnson on 07-20-2019 01:37 AM:

Re: Re: Jen Cummings

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Tar I hear it was like Vegas lol!

They seem to have this anti-change but other than the creation of GPS for dogs and kennel clubs allow their use not one person can point to a single change made in the past that really had any affect on much at all. These very same people are not going to turn their dog loose without one. [/QUOTE ] ok how about the babbling rule!! LOL

Posted by yadkintar on 07-20-2019 01:40 AM:

Yeah but the advisor changed weekly depending on who got in trouble lol.

Tar

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 07-20-2019 04:42 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Jen Cummings

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson ok how about the babbling rule!! LOL [/B]

3 minute grace period to strike a barking dog the first turn out was actually way more lenient than the 1 minute now and being forced to strike on or before the 3rd bark for the rest of the hunt stricter. Most hunts as Tar stated back in the day were spent in one spot therefore dogs are more unlikely to have been loose barking after the first turn out.
A dog can be minused for babbling anytime during the duration of a hunt, no time has changed that. It is the most misunderstood rule UKC has. Some judges are ready to minus if a dog is struck under the minute when in reality the time gone has zero to do with babbling.

Posted by yadkintar on 07-20-2019 12:28 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Jen Cummings

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
3 minute grace period to strike a barking dog the first turn out was actually way more lenient than the 1 minute now and being forced to strike on or before the 3rd bark for the rest of the hunt stricter. Most hunts as Tar stated back in the day were spent in one spot therefore dogs are more unlikely to have been loose barking after the first turn out.
A dog can be minused for babbling anytime during the duration of a hunt, no time has changed that. It is the most misunderstood rule UKC has. Some judges are ready to minus if a dog is struck under the minute when in reality the time gone has zero to do with babbling.

Even tho your gut is telling you somthing is fishy in Denmark. In my country even tho it’s thick dog in a minute will be 300 to 400 yards in no way can you say they are not running a coon at that distance. And usually they got help so it ain’t going to stick misusing them anyways.

Back in the day after the first 3 minutes you could wackum right off the snap so we broke them. They encourage it now.

Tar

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