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-- Traits Passed On (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928524272)


Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-16-2019 02:21 PM:

Traits Passed On

How many generations does a male or female pass their traits on? I know that the sire and dam each only pass 50% of their genetic makeup to their pups. So their grand pups only have 25% of their genetic makeup and their great grandpups only have 12.5% of their genetic makeup. So how far down the line do y'all think that you can see traits from a dog's ancestor?


Posted by yadkintar on 11-16-2019 02:27 PM:

I am on my 6th generation since tar rattler and still see passed down traits but it might just be my imagination.


Tar


Posted by CHEWBACH on 11-16-2019 02:48 PM:

Seen posts about breeding!! Breeding isn't complex!! Getting what you want is complex thing! getting right male and female cross that reproduce is truly the most/best factor in creating coondogs/good ones. seen half shep / half mutt cross!! some best coondogs around. any one can breed dogs!! all just cant get coondogs. jmo

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-16-2019 02:51 PM:

Tarbaby, they would carry 3% of Tar Rattler's genetic makeup. Is that enough for his traits to still show up? I wonder just how much it takes?


Posted by yadkintar on 11-16-2019 02:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Tarbaby, they would carry 3% of Tar Rattler's genetic makeup. Is that enough for his traits to still show up? I wonder just how much it takes?



Maybe because we breed our own brouther and mess with them from day one is why we notice vs sombody that just buys a pup.


Tarbaby


Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-16-2019 03:04 PM:

Some people "that just buy a pup" only look at the Sire and Dam but others look at the ancestors of the pup. I wonder just how far back a pup buyer should look? UKC offers a 7 gen pedigree for any dog. Is there a reason for that?


Posted by yadkintar on 11-16-2019 03:11 PM:

Well I study papers buuuuuut I rarely ever breed to a young dog I always breed to a dog after it has proven to reproduce the traits I like. But we own the mother of the Fred dog I hunted he got killed on the highway and his sire was also deceased. So we bred to a littermate to his sire that has won a lot but not proven in the breeding pen so we will see.


Tarbaby


Posted by Dogwhisper on 11-16-2019 03:15 PM:

Breeding for traits can be fixed in every generation .....if u got the time.
If a breeder ain't breeding for traits but $, then a 7 gen. pedigree
ain't worth the paper it's printed on
Breeding for $ is like pissing in the wind , u end up with chump change..in the end.


Posted by Hardball on 11-16-2019 03:24 PM:

Richard, I've been told if you throw a dead cow in the creek, you have to go way downstream to drink clean water! There has been a lot of ole ready to ole handy crosses made in all breeds and we've come up with paper tigers and few Coon dogs imo. That said, my limited experience has seen more grand side and grand dam traits than anything.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-16-2019 03:57 PM:

To accurately measure or see how far back they go, you have to look at traits that can't be trained or changed. They aren't always the traits that make a "winner" or traits that you breed for but for research purposes, they are the easiest. A few of them are color, mouth, tree style and nose.


Posted by Dave Richards on 11-16-2019 06:42 PM:

Mr. Lambert

Good question, no definite answer. As you mentioned some things are easy to predict, as they are the dominant traits. Other thing are less predictable as they are recessive and require 2 recessive genes to occur. We have charts to predict the likihood of certain outcomes in breeding for recessive and dominant traits. Now factor in mutations and everything changes. Any gene that is present can pop up at anytime regardless of how low the percentage may be. You may get the right combination of genes 20 generations down the breeding path and that genetic characteristic show up . As long as you are breeding a specific breed you are going to have common traits within that breed and those traits are going to keep appearing both recessive and dominant traits, as the gene pool is limited. Outcrossing increases the gene pool, knowledgeable breeders should know what traits their breeding are producing and breed according. Dave

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Posted by Dave Richards on 11-16-2019 07:17 PM:

Mr. Lambert

Breeding dogs for certain traits can be very difficult in that we really don't know what is dominant and what is recessive in all cases. Sure we know that color and several other things are dominant, but we don't know what every trait we desire is going to be either dominant or recessive. Recessive genes can go generations before it shows up, making it hard to breed for. Sometimes a mutation pops up that is very desirable, but can not be reproduced. It's these situations that prevents us from having litter after litter of World Champion pups. Dave

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Posted by Black Ash Bawl on 11-16-2019 07:36 PM:

my 2 cents

parents give one gene for each trait . Now the pup is only going to show the trait that is dominant. The other trait will stay hidden until it matches up with another recessive gene and will then show itself. So a trait might pop up 4 generations later that you did not know was there. Or you might only see traits of the Sire if he has a lot of dominate genes. It is a lot easier to loose the traits you like if they are not dominate. Knowing which traits are dominate and which are recessive is the key to selecting which hounds you should cross. What makes this even more of a gamble is the fact that even thou the parent has the dominate trait you want , they might also have the hidden recessive gene for that same trait. The pup has a 50 percent chance for getting the dominate or recessive gene. This is why every pup in the litter is not the same . One could carry on the traits of a dominate sire for many generations or it could all be lost in 2 generations.

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Posted by Black Ash Bawl on 11-16-2019 07:40 PM:

thanks dave

I agree with you Ö. is there ever identical twin dogs where there would be 2 pups in the same sack when they are born. Then you could give one pup to a great trainer and one to an average coon hunter and compare the results....

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Posted by Black Ash Bawl on 11-16-2019 07:43 PM:

question

A mutation has a snowballs chance in hill of showing up. And if it did there is very few breeders that would even recognize that they did have a pup with a mutation.

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Posted by Dave Richards on 11-16-2019 08:30 PM:

Black Ash Bawl

3 good posts, 100 percent agree with you, just as you and I have posted are the reasons why we don't have litter after litter of top coonhounds. We ALL want these things, but getting them is a different story. Some things are pretty easy to identify as dominant, while many other things are less identifiable. Many things we actually desire may in fact be recessive or some may be mutations, either way they are things that are not easily reproduced. Not all breeders have the knowledge and commitment to breed generation after generation to see what traits are dominant or recessive, kudos to those that try. I strongly think that many things we desire or want in our dogs are in fact recessive and not controllable to the degree we want. Natural traits are highly desired as they manifest themselves with little or no training. A dog with brains can be taught many things, but taught behavior is not something a dog passes to their offspring. More times than not a top coon dog is a combination of genetics and training or learned behavior . We DO NOT get any of the learned behavior in their offspring only the genetic , that is the real reason that most dogs can not produce dogs like themselves. Dave

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Posted by Reuben on 11-17-2019 03:22 AM:

The best defense is a good offense...keep them related and make each breeder is top of the line...test the pups and select those that show natural tendencies to range wind and track and tree...

We know that for color the pup inherits one color gene from each parent and the color of the pup will be the dominant color which can be from either parent...if we know certain things from each parent of the pups then we can predict color...

My personal theory on hunting genes is that it could possibly be a cluster of genetic makeup for hunting traits, baying and treeing...

Something else...we can breed red dogs and get different shades of red in pups...

Bottom line for me because of all the variables as I have mentioned before...pick pups with natural inclinations, keep them related and breed best to best...sounds simple but itís not unless you have an established line of top dogs...and then all you need is to have an eye for a dog...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...


Posted by thomasg on 11-17-2019 03:36 AM:

Re: Traits Passed On

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
How many generations does a male or female pass their traits on? I know that the sire and dam each only pass 50% of their genetic makeup to their pups. So their grand pups only have 25% of their genetic makeup and their great grandpups only have 12.5% of their genetic makeup. So how far down the line do y'all think that you can see traits from a dog's ancestor?
breed the best male from a litter to the best female from the same litter ,the fruits off your breeding program will show up for good or bad because inbreeding is the fastest way to set and evaluate traits in a line of hounds ,


Posted by thomasg on 11-17-2019 03:36 AM:

Re: Traits Passed On

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
How many generations does a male or female pass their traits on? I know that the sire and dam each only pass 50% of their genetic makeup to their pups. So their grand pups only have 25% of their genetic makeup and their great grandpups only have 12.5% of their genetic makeup. So how far down the line do y'all think that you can see traits from a dog's ancestor?
breed the best male from a litter to the best female from the same litter ,the fruits off your breeding program will show up for good or bad because inbreeding is the fastest way to set and evaluate traits in a line of hounds ,


Posted by novicane65 on 11-17-2019 12:28 PM:

Re: Re: Traits Passed On

quote:
Originally posted by thomasg
breed the best male from a litter to the best female from the same litter ,the fruits off your breeding program will show up for good or bad because inbreeding is the fastest way to set and evaluate traits in a line of hounds ,



You could also end up with a whole litter of thyroid dogs doing so.

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Posted by Dave Richards on 11-17-2019 12:33 PM:

thomasg

How many breeders are going to do what you have suggested, but you are right, you will see the good or the bad. Even if it's good, are you going to be able to retain these traits with outcrossing? Most folks are not going to buy inbred pups, so if you aren't breeding for your own use, you are wasting your time. Dave

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-17-2019 03:49 PM:

Is Tarbaby the only one with an opinion on the original question, "How far back in a pedigree can you see traits"?


Posted by Dave Richards on 11-17-2019 05:13 PM:

Mr. Lambert

I expressed my opinion, I think a recessive trait can show many generations back when paired with a like recessive gene, saying that I think dominant genes show up for many generations albeit getting weaker as the percentages drop. You see things pop up even after many generations, I. E. Bob tail, white chest, etc. Dave

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Posted by Reuben on 11-17-2019 06:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Is Tarbaby the only one with an opinion on the original question, "How far back in a pedigree can you see traits"?


Certain traits can pop up later if paired up and these traits are recessives on account they arenít seen until later when they pair up...

I see traits that we breed for in this way...regardless of whether they are dominant or recessive traits...if you bred dogs for a certain trait then pick and breed the pups that exhibit that trait along with all the other traits that matter...you can really lower the percentages of getting that trait or totally breed it out if we skip a generation without the desired trait...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...


Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-17-2019 07:37 PM:

So, "later"? Everyone is being very vague or talking in generalities. Does anybody besides Tarbaby have any personal experience? Where is Yadkinriver?


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