UKC Forums - Rule Question

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Posted by Sonny Phipps on 10-03-2019 01:17 AM:

Rule Question

I know the new rule situation has not even been officially put out to us at this time but has anyone thought about reducing the non working dog time? So much time and ink talking about dogs backing and scratching for fighting when they weren’t fighting , leash locking , ect. But why in a one hour hunt can a dog not hunt for 14 min and still be consider a working dog?

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Posted by Rick St.Clair on 10-03-2019 01:30 AM:

Understand your point, I'd hope mine was out making something happen to where I dint have to worry about one beating me that was on break.

Posted by Sonny Phipps on 10-03-2019 02:02 AM:

I agree with you 100%. I also thought that if one is backing late all the time, I shouldn’t have a lot to worry about it. It seems that good dogs are getting beat by the me too dog a lot.....

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Posted by Dave Richards on 10-03-2019 02:33 AM:

Sonny

Are they really good dogs or just someone's idea of a good dog? If a backer or non hunting dog can beat you, you need to take a better look at what you are leading. I would love to draw those kind of dogs every cast, good dogs don't need an excuse to win. Lol. Dave

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Posted by Sonny Phipps on 10-03-2019 04:30 PM:

Preach on brother Dave. But this forum is ate up with folks complaining how they getting beat by sorry dogs that get 75 tree points at the 4 min mark. I’ve been at this game a bit myself and whenever I got beat like that I found the reason on my leash , not a rule problem.

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Posted by Coby Wright on 10-03-2019 04:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Sonny Phipps
I agree with you 100%. I also thought that if one is backing late all the time, I shouldn’t have a lot to worry about it. It seems that good dogs are getting beat by the me too dog a lot.....

This doesn't happen in some of the other registries because points are reduced based on time. A dog backing late will likely only receive 25 tree points. Granted it doesn't eliminate it entirely, but makes it much harder for that dog to win.

The 50 point gap between first and second tree helps mitigate this some, but if you have a tight mouth loner you could still get beat. This has been a complaint about UKC since I started hunting back in the 90's.

For example, if they are hunting an "automatic" strike dog and taking second tree on every coon they will be hard to beat by a dog getting last strike and first tree.

I personally usually hunt (or prefer) dogs that are first or second strike dogs and first tree dogs that are independent but will back as well. However I've seen some very nice dogs lose to dogs that did very little if any of the work.

I also agree with the non working dog statement. I think the time needs to be adjusted to be proportional to the hunt time. 15 minutes might be okay for a 2 hour hunt but it's a significant percentage of an hour hunt.

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Posted by T Felderman on 10-03-2019 09:04 PM:

If your gonna mess with a rule I'd be looking at the 2 minute rule on tree. Now that they only have to tree for 3 minutes and bark once every 2 minutes is a joke. jmho

Posted by Dave Richards on 10-03-2019 09:24 PM:

Sonny phipps

I would enjoy hunting with you, I like a man that tell it like it is and DOES NOT make excuses for his dog. The best get beat sometimes, that's just the way things are, but a really good dog will win most of the time regardless of the rules. Dave

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Posted by shadinc on 10-04-2019 12:59 AM:

Re: Rule Question

quote:
Originally posted by Sonny Phipps
I know the new rule situation has not even been officially put out to us at this time but has anyone thought about reducing the non working dog time? So much time and ink talking about dogs backing and scratching for fighting when they weren’t fighting , leash locking , ect. But why in a one hour hunt can a dog not hunt for 14 min and still be consider a working dog?

Could it be because he's working for 46 minutes?

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Posted by wadepardue on 10-04-2019 01:28 AM:

None-Working Dog

When you have major concerns about a dog that is following the cast around, then you might won't to take a hard look at what you just turned loose...

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Posted by Dave Richards on 10-04-2019 01:43 AM:

Wade

Excuses are just a way of saying I need a better dog. I don't care what the other digs do in any cast I am hunting in, I am only interested in what my dog does. Way too many folks are more interested in other folks dogs than their own dog. MAKE no excuses, call you dog for what it does and let the chips fall where they belong. If your dog is ready for competition, then you should not need any excuses, excuses are nothing more than a lack of dog power. Dave

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Posted by Sonny Phipps on 10-04-2019 01:55 AM:

personally usually hunt (or prefer) dogs that are first or second strike dogs and first tree dogs that are independent but will back as well. However I've seen some very nice dogs lose to dogs that did very little if any of the work.

I understand what your saying, but can you say without a doubt that the above mentioned dog was trying to tree a coon the whole time it was loose in the cast? I know situations unfold and it happens, but not very often. Same way with a dog that backs a lot. Most of the time “the good dog” wasn’t doing his 100% either. JMO

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Posted by Sonny Phipps on 10-04-2019 02:04 AM:

You guys are all saying what I’ve been saying. Rules don’t need changed as bad as many people preach they do. I promise a coon treeing coon dog that won before will still win under the new rules. Good dogs will win period. You can come with 100 scenarios of what was wrong, but most of it was what we are packing. A non working dog has and can win, same as a backing type dog but it’s not that often if what you or me are hunting is truly trying to tree coons all of the time.

True coonhounds come in many styles, the old rules maybe favored a open trailing type dog that can work in a pack, but a silent loner would still win if it was a COONDOG, the newest rules now favor a silent loner & they will be at a bit more advantage & will bred for more.

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Posted by bigdiezel79 on 10-04-2019 02:18 AM:

Not sure I’m a fan of the new rules. If a me too dog is winning a hunt, that would mean that the lazy hound is beating you to the tree and or you aren’t calling your dog treed.. or am I totally missing something here?

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Posted by Coby Wright on 10-04-2019 02:54 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Sonny Phipps
I understand what your saying, but can you say without a doubt that the above mentioned dog was trying to tree a coon the whole time it was loose in the cast? I know situations unfold and it happens, but not very often. Same way with a dog that backs a lot. Most of the time “the good dog” wasn’t doing his 100% either. JMO

I can't say it was trying to tree a coon anymore than I can say the dog running around barking was trying to tree a coon. I can only say what it looks like.

I don't make excuses for my dogs. I'm just commenting on what I've seen. I don't have a problem hunting against these dogs as I currently have dogs that are often carrying 1st or 2nd strike.

With that said, we've all hunted with the dog that starts barking when you are getting ready to cast then never stops barking. I don't allow my dogs to do that. I don't have a clue what any dog is actually out there doing. They could be walking around looking for a place to poop and accidentally walk up on a coon and the barking dog could be chasing the other dogs or they could both be looking/trailing a coon.

However, if one dog is trailing for 20 minutes then stops and makes a b-line to the dog that just got treed I'm going to give credit to the one that actually made the tree, not the one grubbing out a track regardless of which dog is mine or if neither are mine. (and at least one of mine has been guilty of doing this)

Also, I never said my dog was the "good" dog in this situation. I'm currently hunting a couple of big pups so they are rarely the "good" dog in the group. However, my statement still remains true. Those types of dogs do win more often in UKC than they do in PKC or CHKC and it's simply because the point structure is in their favor.

Everyone has their preferences and hunting styles. Some folks want the dog that will quit their track and back because they like to hunt with buddies and don't like walking to split trees all night or standing around listening to a cold track. I understand that and I'm just stating my opinion based on years of competition hunting in all registries and titling dogs in all of them.

Cheers,
Coby

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Posted by Sonny Phipps on 10-04-2019 03:42 AM:

Well said coby. I’m not trying to differ from what u say or like, sounds like we like similar types. I’m simply pointing out what I see the future bringing .

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 10-04-2019 04:19 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by bigdiezel79
Not sure I’m a fan of the new rules. If a me too dog is winning a hunt, that would mean that the lazy hound is beating you to the tree and or you aren’t calling your dog treed.. or am I totally missing something here?

It all depends on it's strike. Remember there are 3 other dogs it can cover. A dog that is struck high that may tree it's own coon even once but is just covering around is dangerous in a cast and can be hard to beat. The ones actually running the track no one finds as frustrating as the one that just covers to be going to another dog.

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