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-- Tweaking a dog to compete (bad tracks)? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928534443)


Posted by MorAnd on 11-16-2020 11:22 PM:

Tweaking a dog to compete (bad tracks)?

I figure there'll be several opinions to this question, depending on the type of dog you like and what you like listening to. I train a dog to compete and not just tree coons. When your dog is on a bad track that its having trouble moving/unraveling:

1) at what point do you determine that the dog won't finish that track with a coon, or it will probably take it longer than you're want it to

2) on average, how long do you allow it to work/worry with that track before you send it on/move it out

3) what is your method in sending it on/moving it out

4) how long does it usually take for a dog to get the idea of what you're wanting it to do, and begin to leave those type tracks alone on it's own without encouragement from you


Posted by rdmedders on 11-17-2020 02:23 AM:

Re: Tweaking a dog to compete (bad tracks)?

quote:
Originally posted by MorAnd
I figure there'll be several opinions to this question, depending on the type of dog you like and what you like listening to. I train a dog to compete and not just tree coons. When your dog is on a bad track that its having trouble moving/unraveling:

1) at what point do you determine that the dog won't finish that track with a coon, or it will probably take it longer than you're want it to

2) on average, how long do you allow it to work/worry with that track before you send it on/move it out

3) what is your method in sending it on/moving it out

4) how long does it usually take for a dog to get the idea of what you're wanting it to do, and begin to leave those type tracks alone on it's own without encouragement from you


some of the same questions i've been looking for answers on!

__________________
Jesus saves!


Posted by Cotton 1927 on 11-17-2020 02:51 AM:

Reply

Are you going to primarily pleasure hunt or competion hunt?


Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-17-2020 03:10 AM:

I don't send mine on. I want them to learn to finish a track if they start it. They can't learn if you keep sending them on looking for an easy one.


Posted by shadinc on 11-17-2020 04:10 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I don't send mine on. I want them to learn to finish a track if they start it. They can't learn if you keep sending them on looking for an easy one.
Same here. Let 'em struggle.

__________________
Donald Bergeron


Posted by Dave Richards on 11-17-2020 05:00 AM:

Dog

My thinking has always been that if a dog can smell the track enough to open on it, then the dog should be able to finish the track and tree the coon. I just do not like excuses like the tracks too old or rough, etc. If they can smell it they CAN tree it, NO EXCUSES. Dave

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Posted by Leon Keys on 11-17-2020 01:14 PM:

No more than 30 minutes per strike

Iím a pleasure hunter. My goal is to make 3 or 4 trees in a 2 hour hunt. The dog I am hunting now is an honest strike dog that likes to trail. He is normally struck inside of 5 minutes. The bad side of that is that he starts tracks he struggles to move & finish. I give him 30 minutes to finish each track struck on weekday work nights. If heís still struggling around the 30 minute mark, I call & tone him back to me. I load him up and go to another set of woods and turn out. On weekends, Iíll give him up to an hour to finish a track. Iíve come to the conclusion that he has more try than talent. He trees enough Coons for me to feed him.
-
I recut him off trees in the same set of woods but I donít verbally (or electronically) tell him to quit a track & move on.

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Happy Huntiní
Leon


Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-17-2020 03:45 PM:

Mr Leon, that is a happy medium and makes a lot of sense.


Posted by MorAnd on 11-18-2020 03:22 AM:

top


Posted by pamjohnson on 11-18-2020 02:29 PM:

Just me and my opinion. It May not be right.
I don't move a dog on or any of that. Occasionally I have toned a dog back in to me because I got tired of waiting or I'm frozen or getting soaked. But I don't do that very often or maybe I need to cull my dog and get a better track dog. Which I have done just that over the years when I needed to. I never regretted it either. I like a dog that can do a quality job of tracking. Fast is great as well but quality tracking is key. If a dog is back tracking, spaghetti the Garmin screen, skipping tracks or falling treed on empties very often it's time for a new dog. Just being able to tree coon isn't good enough to satisfy me and I can't track a coon for them.


Posted by Preacher Tom on 11-18-2020 03:36 PM:

Here's one to think about. What about the dog that strikes and can't get the track straightened out. After about 15-20 minutes in a pretty small area he falls treed with the coon. Now the other dogs couldn't (wouldn't) even open on this track. You like him or not?

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Tom Wood


Posted by houndsound on 11-18-2020 04:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Preacher Tom
Here's one to think about. What about the dog that strikes and can't get the track straightened out. After about 15-20 minutes in a pretty small area he falls treed with the coon. Now the other dogs couldn't (wouldn't) even open on this track. You like him or not?


Yes

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https://nighttrainhounds.webs.com/


Posted by shadinc on 11-18-2020 05:15 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Preacher Tom
Here's one to think about. What about the dog that strikes and can't get the track straightened out. After about 15-20 minutes in a pretty small area he falls treed with the coon. Now the other dogs couldn't (wouldn't) even open on this track. You like him or not?
She's in my pen. I like her.

__________________
Donald Bergeron


Posted by pamjohnson on 11-18-2020 06:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Preacher Tom
Here's one to think about. What about the dog that strikes and can't get the track straightened out. After about 15-20 minutes in a pretty small area he falls treed with the coon. Now the other dogs couldn't (wouldn't) even open on this track. You like him or not?
maybe or maybe not. I seen a dog do just that on 3 different coon one night in a cast I was hunting in. It was impressive. My dog was 1 of the other dogs that got his but trimmed that night. But the dog that treed them coon was one of slick treeingest dogs you could ever hunt with on a regular basis. No I wouldn't own him.


Posted by shadinc on 11-18-2020 11:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
maybe or maybe not. I seen a dog do just that on 3 different coon one night in a cast I was hunting in. It was impressive. My dog was 1 of the other dogs that got his but trimmed that night. But the dog that treed them coon was one of slick treeingest dogs you could ever hunt with on a regular basis. No I wouldn't own him.
Preacher Tom does say," falls treed with the coon".

__________________
Donald Bergeron


Posted by MorAnd on 11-20-2020 04:44 AM:

I appreciate the responses and respect those that see it and train different than I do. I train dogs to compete and while I realize it sometimes take a dog a while to unravel some tracks, I need my dog to tree as many coons as it can in during regulation hunting time and I don't want it spending too much time on any given track when if it had skipped out (sometimes) a couple hundred yards, it might find a track that it can tree much quicker. I realize the next track may be just as bad or worse, but I'd rather my dog be moving around to find a track it can tree fairly quickly. I also realize that on some casts there is only 1 con treed and it may be treed by that dog that spent time unraveling that cold track and came up with the cast winning coon.

I'm not talking about a cold or feed track that a dog is moving out on, I'm referring to when the dog stays in the same general area (say within 50 - 100 yards) for 10 minutes or more going back and forth, over here and over there, but not really moving the track out.


Posted by Reuben on 11-20-2020 01:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by MorAnd
I appreciate the responses and respect those that see it and train different than I do. I train dogs to compete and while I realize it sometimes take a dog a while to unravel some tracks, I need my dog to tree as many coons as it can in during regulation hunting time and I don't want it spending too much time on any given track when if it had skipped out (sometimes) a couple hundred yards, it might find a track that it can tree much quicker. I realize the next track may be just as bad or worse, but I'd rather my dog be moving around to find a track it can tree fairly quickly. I also realize that on some casts there is only 1 con treed and it may be treed by that dog that spent time unraveling that cold track and came up with the cast winning coon.

I'm not talking about a cold or feed track that a dog is moving out on, I'm referring to when the dog stays in the same general area (say within 50 - 100 yards) for 10 minutes or more going back and forth, over here and over there, but not really moving the track out.



I donít coon hunt but good hog dogs are quite a bit like good coon dogs...l see it as slightly different...the really good dogs donít have this problem...they tend to locate and line out the track...

Then you have those dogs that occasionally get hung up trying to straighten the track...if they do this too often I wonít spend much time on them...

Then Iíve had a few dogs that stuck with the first track they came across and they would stay with that track too long...I wonít keep a dog of that type...

I see it more like the dog either has it or he dosenít...and sometimes I have to live with it until I have a replacement...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...


Posted by Davebrott on 11-20-2020 05:09 PM:

tracks

after 10 mins of standing on his head i would move them out of the area.either by running him out of there with a stick or shocker depends how the dog acts with a shocker. if you plan on competition hunting time is everything you don't want one standing on there head for long.


Posted by Dogwhisper on 11-20-2020 06:16 PM:

I've dropped dogs w/no hinge and dogs with a hinge.
Both if given time will tree their coon.
The no hinge type will be 2-3 sections over and crossed 2 roads to tree their coon ,if it don't get run over .....the hinge will stay in the section dropped in 8-20 min. & come up with it's coon also.
I don't e-stimulate them when their tracking .
If I want to move a dog along I'll send in a heads ups track dog ...after all if a dog is by itself it ain't competing & even that is no guarantee the dog will lift it's head and compete .


Posted by MorAnd on 11-20-2020 11:23 PM:

Dogwhisperer,

That's a different perspective Ö send in a dog that puts pressure on it; hadn't really thought of it like that. Nor, have I heard the "no hinge/hinge" verbiage. That's the beauty of this board, different thoughts/ ideas and terminology. I love learning something new Ö


Davebott,

Sounds like we train alike. Heck, we may both be wrong (Lol), but that's just how we see it.


Reuben,

It's funny, coon hunters seem to think dogs don't get hung up on off game/non-coon tracks. I've heard it said, I wish my dog could run a coon like he does a hog/deer. It sounds like some hog tracks are colder and have to be unraveled too.


Posted by River Birch Run on 11-24-2020 02:20 PM:

So there is a lot of info missing here on the question the should be addressed 1st. How old is the dog and how much time in the woods has it had ALONE? I dedicate a yr to hunting a dog alone through all four seasons. The most important thing is to fine a nice log to sit on by a tree for witch to lean you back on. Sit back a listen, use your garmin mark areas the dog throws interesting barks at. Once the dog moves out of the area check those marked area's. See what was there it don't take long to learn what every bark the dog makes mean. I like to sneak in on a dog where I can watch it work too. There are so many factors as to why a dog is standing on its head. Tree tops, dry leaves, tracking off game, jumping tracks, water, frost, tall vegetation, thick cover, the list goes on and on. The trick is to learn what is holding the dog up and keeping the shocker in the pocket and letting the dog finish. Once you are pretty certain what slows the dog down, try to set the dog up to succeed, to build its confidence. Sprinkle in what it struggles with and the dog should get better at it as it's confidence builds. You can speed this along if you have a good dog you can toss in with it every now and again to show it to how to better work an area it struggles in. I.E. working a track threw thick tree tops with briers. I good dog will take track to that point then circle it and pick it up on the back side rather than work through it. A young dog will pick up on that rather fast if it trust the dog it's in the woods with. It's all about reps and positive renforcement.

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Posted by houndsound on 11-24-2020 03:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by River Birch Run
So there is a lot of info missing here on the question the should be addressed 1st. How old is the dog and how much time in the woods has it had ALONE? I dedicate a yr to hunting a dog alone through all four seasons. The most important thing is to fine a nice log to sit on by a tree for witch to lean you back on. Sit back a listen, use your garmin mark areas the dog throws interesting barks at. Once the dog moves out of the area check those marked area's. See what was there it don't take long to learn what every bark the dog makes mean. I like to sneak in on a dog where I can watch it work too. There are so many factors as to why a dog is standing on its head. Tree tops, dry leaves, tracking off game, jumping tracks, water, frost, tall vegetation, thick cover, the list goes on and on. The trick is to learn what is holding the dog up and keeping the shocker in the pocket and letting the dog finish. Once you are pretty certain what slows the dog down, try to set the dog up to succeed, to build its confidence. Sprinkle in what it struggles with and the dog should get better at it as it's confidence builds. You can speed this along if you have a good dog you can toss in with it every now and again to show it to how to better work an area it struggles in. I.E. working a track threw thick tree tops with briers. I good dog will take track to that point then circle it and pick it up on the back side rather than work through it. A young dog will pick up on that rather fast if it trust the dog it's in the woods with. It's all about reps and positive renforcement.


Excellent post!

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Checkout Wyoming coon hunting:

https://nighttrainhounds.webs.com/


Posted by MUSKY on 11-24-2020 03:58 PM:

Sounds to me like you need to get a hot nosed ambush style hound. It wonít mess with a cold track, will be tight on the ground and will run through the woods looking to get hooked up. If you live and hunt where coons are thick they are very productive. I unfortunately do not live in a area with a good coon population and will not shock a dog off a bad track. I have called them in and moved before though. Where I live they have to be willing to run the first track they come across, it may be the only one for quite a while so I typically prefer a track dog with a pretty good nose and hopefully they donít spend half their life trying to figure it out.

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Home of:
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Posted by Kler Kry on 11-25-2020 03:49 PM:

Outstanding Track Dogs

quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
I donít coon hunt but good hog dogs are quite a bit like good coon dogs...l see it as slightly different...the really good dogs donít have this problem...they tend to locate and line out the track...

Then you have those dogs that occasionally get hung up trying to straighten the track...if they do this too often I wonít spend much time on them...

Then Iíve had a few dogs that stuck with the first track they came across and they would stay with that track too long...I wonít keep a dog of that type...

I see it more like the dog either has it or he dosenít...and sometimes I have to live with it until I have a replacement...



Totally Agree

"If you put a big enough propeller on a house, then you can make it fly, but that doesn't necessarily mean that its a good idea." Ken Risley


Posted by yadkinriver on 11-25-2020 07:17 PM:

If you tweak a young dog off bad tracks you may be preventing that dog from it's full potential. The best dog I ever had had so much nose he would take a track at midnight that was made early and other dogs wouldn't even open on and trail what seemed like forever. I would sit in the truck with my window cracked until his big squal locate then go to him. By two years old he would drift out on it and tree coons that others didn't know was in the woods and not take all night to do it.
Electronic training equipment is great but it can be over used too.


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