UKC Forums - stud dogs

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Posted by RED REBELS on 12-29-2011 09:52 PM:

stud dogs

If you have a young male, lets say 2 or under, and you feel that he is a really nice dog and would want some pups out of him someday, do you start breeding him once you know how nice he is, or once he is finished to where you want him in compititions?

just want people's opinions about when they start breeding there males. I have one here that is under 2 but will have 2 or 3 litters on the ground in the next few months, I did it because I want to know what kind of hound he reproduces before I push him in breeding pen (I will push him after he is AT LEAST dual grand) and it also helps me with getting him 100 pups on the ground lol

thanks!
Lizz

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Posted by Christy on 12-29-2011 10:03 PM:

Whenever you are happy with him wether he is 1 or 10 then breed him. After all your breeding for yourself who cares what anyone else thinks.

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Posted by RED REBELS on 12-29-2011 10:23 PM:

I was just wondering what others do

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Posted by WattsFlatsRedbo on 12-29-2011 10:26 PM:

Re: stud dogs

quote:
Originally posted by RED REBELS
If you have a young male, lets say 2 or under, and you feel that he is a really nice dog and would want some pups out of him someday, do you start breeding him once you know how nice he is, or once he is finished to where you want him in compititions?

How can you even know how nice he is if he's not even a finished dog yet? Personally I don't breed any dogs until thier a finished hound in the woods and have allready proved they can win in competition. You don't really know what you have until then. IMO.
Also with some young males breeding can really mess with thier head. It did with my Jeb dog. He's got the females on his mind all the time now. Thats why he's retired. I was gonna knock him cold if I took him to another big hunt to just watch him follow the females around all night and barely get his mouth open enough to get struck and treed in behind them. Lol.
I know with my next stud dog in the future I won't "live" breed them until they are finished in the hunts and I don't want to campaign them anymore. Again JMO's.

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Posted by RED REBELS on 12-29-2011 10:32 PM:

Re: Re: stud dogs

quote:
Originally posted by WattsFlatsRedbo
How can you even know how nice he is if he's not even a finished dog yet? Personally I don't breed any dogs until thier a finished hound in the woods and have allready proved they can win in competition. You don't really know what you have until then. IMO.
Also with some young males breeding can really mess with thier head. It did with my Jeb dog. He's got the females on his mind all the time now. Thats why he's retired. I was gonna knock him cold if I took him to another big hunt to just watch him follow the females around all night and barely get his mouth open enough to get struck and treed in behind them. Lol.
I know with my next stud dog in the future I won't "live" breed them until they are finished in the hunts and I don't want to campaign them anymore. Again JMO's.

thank you, this is what I was looking for!

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Posted by Bob Hennessey on 12-29-2011 10:33 PM:

Your biggest problem is going to be able to get the pups in the right hands. Most people want pups from titled dogs and if you give them to people will they give the pup the time and training they need? If they don't, either because it was free or you can't get them in the right hands you have a problem. You can't keep them all and do them justice. If you are trying to get 100 pups out you better get them in hard hunters hands. Remember they will have to be hunted and campaigned and enough have to turn out. It's a lot easier said then done. GOOD LUCK!

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Posted by WattsFlatsRedbo on 12-29-2011 10:44 PM:

Re: Re: Re: stud dogs

quote:
Originally posted by RED REBELS
thank you, this is what I was looking for!

Your welcome, Lizz. Again those are just my thoughts on things too. Everybody has the right to make thier own decisions on breeding THIER dogs.
I have to agree 100% with The Seeker's post too. It can be tough to find GOOD homes even for the best bred pups sometimes.
Good luck with your hounds and happy hunting to ya.

Posted by Lisa Key on 12-31-2011 09:52 PM:

stud dogs

Have semen collected until u are ready to breed your dogs! then you will have it when you are satisfied with the male and you will always have it if something tragic happens!

Posted by tripple river on 12-31-2011 10:20 PM:

I have spoke to a few "succesful" bredders who have said they believe pups from younger parents tend to turn out better.That being said these people had the ability to move the pups to the right people.i'm not disagreing with anything anybody has posted here. I just thaught I would mention this.

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Posted by RED REBELS on 12-31-2011 10:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by tripple river
I have spoke to a few "succesful" bredders who have said they believe pups from younger parents tend to turn out better.That being said these people had the ability to move the pups to the right people.i'm not disagreing with anything anybody has posted here. I just thaught I would mention this.

not sure how the age of the parents can effect the offspring because the DNA is always the same but I guess just about anything is possible

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Posted by Travis Brown on 01-01-2012 12:10 AM:

If my main goal was to see how many hunts I could win with him in his lifetime I wouldn't breed him because it causes some males to follow females in the woods rather than look for a coon. It causes some to get mean also.

If I wanted to try to make a stud dog out of him I would breed him young so he will have winning pups out of him and be known as a reproducer while he is still young enough to breed a female every day.

If your wanting to do a little of both, well then I would do a little of both. I know some will tell you he is too young to be a finished hound but if you can't tell they are something special well before they are two years old then they aren't.

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Posted by tripple river on 01-01-2012 12:35 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by RED REBELS
not sure how the age of the parents can effect the offspring because the DNA is always the same but I guess just about anything is possible

im not saying it does ,but the breeders that have told me this have been succesful enough that i remembered.not just coondog breeders but birddog breeders also.probably just myth, but i cant argue with there success.

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Posted by Dirtdevil on 01-01-2012 01:00 AM:

Dna stays the same , but the chromosomes don't stay as healthy ... they are damaged by stress , worming , etc ....

Like Travis said , if you're looking for a stud dog .. breed him young to a gyp that has proven she throws nice pups ... don't get down the road and invest in titles , advertising and such just to find out your stud is just another male dog ....

Posted by RED REBELS on 01-04-2012 04:03 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dirtdevil
Dna stays the same , but the chromosomes don't stay as healthy ... they are damaged by stress , worming , etc ....

Like Travis said , if you're looking for a stud dog .. breed him young to a gyp that has proven she throws nice pups ... don't get down the road and invest in titles , advertising and such just to find out your stud is just another male dog ....

I didn't know about the first part (which I guess is part of life, ya learn something new every day)
and to the second part, that's what I am doing, I bred him to two females now and another two females are lined up to be bred to him when they come into heat. One of the litters is registrable due to them being for a handful of local hide and big game hunters who want them out of him and a walker female, I've never hunted him on anything but coon so I don't know why they want pups for big game. it's a free stud fee and I've seen a handful of good pups out of her, so I guess it's good for me to learn how he his pups do as big game hounds and more references on pups for the future. I have many pups spoken for already, 3 (still have a male spot open if you know anyone lol) out of his first litter, 4 out of his second (no openings available), up to 8 on the walker cross and between 2 and 4 on the last litter... all but the walker cross is going to STRICTLY competition hunters

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Posted by Kevin Jackson on 01-04-2012 07:37 AM:

Just curious, how is breeding him to a walker helping the redbone breed? Also, what does big game have to do with cross breeding? A good hound is a good hound whether hunted on coon, cats, bear or any other tree game. If you have a real top notch dog and breed him to top notch females that share similar traits you have a good chance of getting good pups. Nothing is guaranteed though. I hear a lot of people breeding to a dog to cover up bad traits in their dog i.e. breed a poor tree dog to a good tree dog, etc. All that does is at best hide the bad trait for a while. Do your best to breed the dog to top quality females that don't have any big holes in them, the kind that you would be proud to show in the woods against tough competition. Also be sure the male doesn't have any big holes in him. Like others have mentioned most males after being bred change and it's usually not for the better. I hope this doesn't come off as condescending because it's not meant to be. Just curiosity as to what your goals are in breeding dogs? Best of luck to you.

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Posted by RED REBELS on 01-04-2012 07:51 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin Jackson
Just curious, how is breeding him to a walker helping the redbone breed? Also, what does big game have to do with cross breeding? A good hound is a good hound whether hunted on coon, cats, bear or any other tree game. If you have a real top notch dog and breed him to top notch females that share similar traits you have a good chance of getting good pups. Nothing is guaranteed though. I hear a lot of people breeding to a dog to cover up bad traits in their dog i.e. breed a poor tree dog to a good tree dog, etc. All that does is at best hide the bad trait for a while. Do your best to breed the dog to top quality females that don't have any big holes in them, the kind that you would be proud to show in the woods against tough competition. Also be sure the male doesn't have any big holes in him. Like others have mentioned most males after being bred change and it's usually not for the better. I hope this doesn't come off as condescending because it's not meant to be. Just curiosity as to what your goals are in breeding dogs? Best of luck to you.

the big game hounds has nothing to do with them being a cross bred hound, and it was specified that the cross bred cross was fof big game, because it is not helping the redbone breed or the walker breed, but the big game breed.

my purpose is to breed a consitant line of consistant, bawl mouth track dog that throws 3 huge long locates (kind of like the coldsweat locate) with a chop or bawl/chop on tree. a hound that has a LOUD mouth that travels well that is 95%+ accurate hound. and something that meets breed standards good enough to have a good chance for a state level showing and have a bloodline that no matter what you breed it to, it will throw at least most of the pups like them (50% or better, the higher the better).

I might drive myself crazy trying to get there, but I plan to have a lot of fun doing it, but the accuracy is a MUST

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Posted by l.lyle on 01-04-2012 08:29 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by The Seeker
Your biggest problem is going to be able to get the pups in the right hands. Most people want pups from titled dogs and if you give them to people will they give the pup the time and training they need? If they don't, either because it was free or you can't get them in the right hands you have a problem. You can't keep them all and do them justice. If you are trying to get 100 pups out you better get them in hard hunters hands. Remember they will have to be hunted and campaigned and enough have to turn out. It's a lot easier said then done. GOOD LUCK!

Seeker is correct. It is hard to get no names innthe hands of folks that know what they are doing. I don't even try. I breed for me and those are even an experiment... So why not experiment early ?? Not a male dog , he has done pved hisself to me for years, butr a young bitch ,I took a chance on that was not made yet but I took a notion to breed her . In the last few months she made what I ould keep . I have a six month male off her and my old dog that is already so far along that unless he goes crazy, I am going to keep., He is a keeper I do believe. Had i not bred her she would not yet have said aword to me on what she and he could produce. I would have been a year behind. Therfore , I say if you see what you need to see even though the bitch is not yet made it , take that big leap, don't be looking for something that is not there though , but iff you saw it coming in her mamma and Grandmamma like that had had some kind of confidence other than a "hope and a Prayer"you might end up a year ahead when you advertise a "proven cross" . If she fluncks though , you havelost bigtime, so therefore you should concentrate on her nunber one, and then on your pick of the litter number two.

Just remenber this: a Great Graddaaddy stud crossed on a Gr GRD NT CH bitch at 7 years old , first cross, cannot say "Proven Cross"" . Hope I don't tick anybody off too bad. It is a first time trial cross at best.

Posted by droopy_dog2004 on 01-04-2012 11:57 AM:

Genetics Stay The Same Whether The Dog Is 7months Or 10years Old. If You Have Big Plans For The Dog And He Is Really Looking Promising At Say Around 7-12 Months Old Go Ahead And Breed Him To See If His Pups Are Gonna Seem Decent. If Not, Send Him On Down The Line Before You Put A Few Years Into Hunting Him. Ive Seen This Done And I Feel That It Is A Smart Idea. Especially If You Are Planning On Using Him Mainly As A Stud.

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Posted by Kevin Jackson on 01-04-2012 12:26 PM:

Lizz, you have set some high goals for yourself. I hope you achieve them. My registered red dogs do a good enough job on big game that I don't see the point in crossbreeding. That being said I don't have a problem with it either, to each their own. I've hunted with some real nice crossbred dogs. If you ever hunt big game with hounds you'll learn that consistency is just as important as it is in coon dogs if not more. If you achieve your goals you'll be ahead of many breeders in any breed. I'll be on the sidelines trying to learn something new. Good luck.

Posted by Dirtdevil on 01-04-2012 01:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by droopy_dog2004
Genetics Stay The Same Whether The Dog Is 7months Or 10years Old. If You Have Big Plans For The Dog And He Is Really Looking Promising At Say Around 7-12 Months Old Go Ahead And Breed Him To See If His Pups Are Gonna Seem Decent. If Not, Send Him On Down The Line Before You Put A Few Years Into Hunting Him. Ive Seen This Done And I Feel That It Is A Smart Idea. Especially If You Are Planning On Using Him Mainly As A Stud.

Chromosomes damaged during the life of the dog effect pup quality as well as other age factors .... livestock breeders retire hens , cows , mares , etc .... as soon as they pass their prime for good reason that is science and deals with offspring quality.

A really nice dog that throws qualities you just can't find anywhere else is worth breeding old ..... but if you can find similiar in a young dog ... it's an edge.

The European FCI working dog clubs ban dogs from breeding after a certain age unless exception is made by the club officials ... and if dogs score the same on tests , the tiebreaker is age and goes to the younger dog.

Lots of reasons that would fall short on people who dont' want to look into for themselves ... but it's still real .

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