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Judges and Standards

Recently I had a discussion with an experienced breeder and avid UKC exhibitor.

We discussed how the dog that he was currently being showing had a DISQUALIFICATION based on the standard for the breed.

The dog finished a championship without being disqualified.

The dog went on to finished a Grand Championship title without being disqualified.

AT least 12-15 UKC judges judged this dog and none of them either noticed the DQ or had the integrity to disqualify the dog.

I personally witnessed 3 UKC all breed judges take a dog to a championship title in one weekend with a disqualification on color for the breed.

Now folks, I know we hear rumors about judges not being qualified or being political, but really, how can these things happen.

These instances cited are not based on rumor, but on personal observation and fact.

UKC is demanding that all judges attend a judges seminar, which is a fine thing.

Yet, how can the UKC stand by and allow judges who have the title of "Senior" judge not to follow the requirements of the breed standards.

It is these actions and similar ones that makes all exhibitors disenchanted with our organization.

What do you, as breeders and exhibitors, feel the UKC should do to restore faith in the judges that represent the UKC.

__________________
IN THE PURSUIT OF PERFECTION, EXCELLENCE OFTEN OCCURS.

Gerald W. "Jerry" Smith
Senior United Kennel Club Judge #2785 (Retired)
All Breeds except Belgians
APBT Inspector
All Breed Judge for the National Kennel Club
All Breed Judge for the National Canine Association
All breed Judge for the States Kennel Club
Judge for the Australian Shepherd Club of America
319 Section House Rd
Ennis, TX 75119
Home - 972-875-1060
Cell - 469-383-2530
jsbeagles2@yahoo.com

Gerald, that's an interesting question. My question to you is how does UKC know what dog(s) have disqualifying faults if not for our judges finding them?
The main focus of the seminars is on truly understanding breed standards, and not accepting assignments in breeds you, as judges, haven't sufficiently studied to offer an informed opinion. These seminars are truly educational and I firmly believe every judge will benefit by attending.
Did you go to these 3 judges and ask them why they rewarded a dog with a disqualifying fault? If the answer is no, then you may be part of the problem, instead of a part of the solution.

I would think this kind of issue falls under what most exhibitors would term "political" decisions.

If the dog has a DQ issue according to the standard, why is it registered? Is not the UKC policy that dogs with a DQ fault are not registerable? (correct me if i am wrong)

If that is the case, then the breeder/owner is also at fault for perpetuating something that is a DQ.

As to the judges, i am not always so quick to fault them. I would find it daunting, myself, to know every single intricate detail of every single breed.

In every case tho, what it comes down to is SOMEONE, has to make a complaint. Someone, either judge, steward, exhibitor or even an observer has to go to the show committee or...whoever handles these things at a UKC show, and file a complaint.

I do not envy the judges either, becuase i KNOW that some let things slide ( this is an AKC reference), because as they put it, its not worth the long drawn out hassle of being pulled up on the red carpet because they withheld a ribbon due to lack of merit. or because they excused a dog that obviously had shoe polish on its face, that the day before had won breed and a group placement.

Or the judges that i have seen ask an exhibitor to step out of the ring to pat their dog down....watching the powder fly as this is done, and then have it step right back in the ring to finish showing.....

No...i don't envy the judges, they are ****ed if they do and ****ed if they don't. My only fault on them is (akc reference) is showing favour to handlers.

__________________
Serena Galloway
www.ankhu.com

Home of Multi-BIS U-GrCh, Multi Group Winning/Placing AKC Bronze GCh, MBIS/MRBIS Int'l Ch, CKC Ch. Pineridge-Anji's St. Cecilia

Home of BIS/MRBIS U-GrCh., MBPIG CKC Ch., Int'l Ch, AKC GCh. Ankhu's Steamy Windows

No part of this message may be forwarded without permission

I'm new to UKC but I've seen some very inconsistant animals among breeds. When I started with my PWC in UKC, I was told that there is very rarely a corgi entry and its held true, we see only 2 other corgi people at the shows we go to.

I attribute the "inconsistancy" in judging to a lack of quality dogs to judge. How is a judge going to know WHAT is good when he only has the same breeder's dog to look at? I think a huge part of "judges education" is actually getting to put their hands on all types of dogs and being able to compare, over and over again, the written standard to physical specimans. If you want good, consistant judging, enter your dogs...lots of them. Let the judges have the oportunity to interpret the standard while being able to physically see and touch what you think is quality.


I'm glad I have atleast 2 other corgi people at the shows to allow the judge to make a fair judgement based on comparison to the standard. It is our resonsibility as exhibitors and breeders to display what we think is quality and know our standard enough to recognize what virtues our dogs have to outweigh their faults and to help the judge see those virtues as well.

I agree, birdwing

Have you ever read the instructions on how to assemble something only to find that it was much different hands on? I know I have. I am not trying to stick up for a judge that puts up a dog with a DQ. What I am saying is that it is difficult to truely visualize what something should look like, or feel like, if you haven't seen or felt it before.

I would hope, however, that our judges at least know enough about the breeds that they judge to recognize a DQ when they see it.

And remember, UKC doesn't require a hands-on exam prior to registration. We can't expect them to know if our dogs have a DQ or not. We, the breeders and owners should step up to the plate and know our own standards well enough to make that call. And if there are those out there showing dogs that they themselves know has some form of a DQ, shame on them.

Just my two cents, off the sopbox for now.

Amanda Oswald

Re: Judges and Standards

quote:

---

Originally posted by gerald smith
Recently I had a discussion with an experienced breeder and avid UKC exhibitor.

We discussed how the dog that he was currently being showing had a DISQUALIFICATION based on the standard for the breed.


Now folks, I know we hear rumors about judges not being qualified or being political, but really, how can these things happen.


Yet, how can the UKC stand by and allow judges who have the title of "Senior" judge not to follow the requirements of the breed standards.

It is these actions and similar ones that makes all exhibitors disenchanted with our organization.

What do you, as breeders and exhibitors, feel the UKC should do to restore faith in the judges that represent the UKC.

---

__________________
Barbara Williams
www.kleekai.us

in other registries, the ring table has a book of standards for the judges to consult if necessary. Does UKC have the same(not sure, just asking)

I have had judges consult the standard when my breed is in the ring (nsdtr) in the other registries, i asked them why after we were done showing. most wanted to clarify a certain point.

several years ago at the Premier, we had a large entry of tollers, all equal in my opinion, same structures, same height, but some had more white than other.

our standard says if you have white, it is important where it is placed.

the judge went on to give my dog the breed, and told the other exhibitor her dog had too much white on its chest! nowhere in our standard does it say anything about white on the chest.

and we told the judge that, as he came out of the ring after judging and told us why he placed my dog above the other.

needless to say, we told the judge he was incorrect in that assumption, in a nice way. but the exhibitor no longer comes to Premier events, what a shame

__________________
Marsha M, mother of Jessica RN, who owns Annie the toller who has 8 Best Altered in Shows, and Secret, the American Water Spaniel,who is now a UKC CH.

I ALWAYS

review the breed standards beginning a week or so before judging. And I also have no qualms about looking at a printed breed standard while judging to check a detail if necessary.
I was an AKC handler as well as a breeder for more than three decades before joining the UKC many enjoyable venues. I see no difference in the quality of judging in AKC and UKC events. Can it be that people find it easier to criticize UKC judges because we're a smaller group? As a multibreed judge, I take my responsibilities seriously & always try to be correct and fair. But judges ARE HUMAN and NOT computers!. When an exhibitor enters a show, the entry fee pays for a judge's opinion and interpretation of the breed standard.

__________________
SKY
___________________
Author of the novel "Follow Jennifer"

Some Judges Just Don't Know The Breed Standard

I just got home form the Conroe, TX show cluster where, in both shows Saturday, the Judges awarded Best Champion and Best of Breed to a Rat Terrier whose ear carriage/set was dissimilar (and the dog is over one year of age), who had flat feet, whose toes were splayed, whose pasterns were very week, and whose front feet notabley paddled while gaiting. This was one of the most pitiful examples of a Rat Terrier I have seen in a very long time, BUT...the dog was being handled by a perrenial Top 10 exhibitor who has shown before both of these Judges on many prior occasions all over this country. There were several much better Rat Terriers being shown, but it was this monstrosity that the Judges chose to give the awards to. I know the Rat Terrier breed, and the UKC Breed Standard for them, having some 50 years experience in their breeding, training, and exhibition since 1999 in UkC conformation events. It was quite obvious that neither one of these Judges knew the Rat Terrier breed standard, had studied it prior to presiding over the breed, nor did they consult the breed standard that was available to tghem on their Judge's Desk.

This was not the only problem with these two Judges. The American Eskimo exhibitors and Alaskan Klee Kai exhibitors, among those I know of, were also upset about how their breed had been Judged. Several formal complaints have been lodged with the Event Chairperson, and I know of one, my own, that will also be forwarded to Mark Threlfall.

The problem is this: There is no legitmate, realistic, responsive grievance system in place in UKC to hold its Judges accountable for their actions. I have no confidence that anything will come of my complaint at the administrative offices of UKC. The President of the club sp[onsoring the show cluster this past weekend advised that he would take the complaints to his Board and if they decided the complaint(s) were legitmate, and he agreed that it was, that it was likely that those two Judges would not be rehired by their club. A lot of good this does after the fact...NOT! And, furthermore, it does no good to set aside the atrosities imposed by those two Judges on future victims (EXHIBITORS) WHO PAY FROM $500.00 TO $1,000.00 to campaign their dogs in shows each weekend.

THIS lack of administrative competence in UKC is not only disappointing, it is disheartening. If our "official" complaints are not doing any good (and the common thought is that no good will ever come of such complaints and it might just result in a backlash of black-balling of exhibitors by other Judges), why bother to lodge a complaint at all? the only device left up to the exhibitor is to "spread the word" among our circle of firends and associates when bad Judges are encountered in an attempt to avoid their victimization of other exhibitors. Perhaps if we do not enter shows preseided over by such Judges it might gain some attention. BUT...always another "BUT," of supreme significance to me and many other exhibitors is the staggering import of the LACK of administraqtive protocols build into the UKC system to protect exhibitors from incompetent Judges. It is TOO easy to establish a review protocol for complaints, call it a grievance system if you will, and hold Judges accountable for their actions. Mr. Threlfall, why isn't such a system in place in UKC? why are exhibitors convinced that filing formal complaints with you will not come to any good? Doesn't THAT alarm you? Do you think this might be behind an increasing number of people who no longer show their dogs in UKC events?

John W. Chance
jwchance@consolidated.net

__________________
John

I was at a UKC show recently that a CH dog exhibited EXTREME shyness to the point that the person handling the dog gripped the muzzle with one hand and held the dog in place with the other hand by the rear quarters when the dog pulled away from the judge the first time it was attempted to inspect the dog. I was shocked when the dog was awarded BEST OF BREED. This dog exhibited shyness each and every time in the ring and won Best of Breed 2 of the 3 times shown that weekend! Extreme shyness is a disqualification in my breed of australian shepherds.
I am sure that the exhibitor was surprised at the dog's behavior but........others at ringside and myself were downright upset that this dog would be given those wins. And no we did not complain to the show committee, no point when the show giving club pretty much ALWAYS use these judges and this exhibitor will be down in the future for the 'wins' for the top ten points. Myself and others have learned to not bother to show to these 'so called' judges anymore when they didn't JUDGE the class presented to them at all, only the leash as far as we were concerned. I lost complete respect for those judges and consider them a joke to judging.
-donna

__________________
-donna

First of all, you should have filed any and ALL complaints to the show chair (after doing this, if you still feel you must contact UKC at least you would have taken the proper steps).

Did you try asking the judge (after the breed) why he/she placed the dogs?

If all this still leaves a bad taste, try another registry. I will GUARANTEE that other registries will just roll their eyes if you file a complaint (like this one). Or you could just save some money and not enter under these judges.

Showing smarter,
Tina Camp

__________________
Tina L. Camp

Please visit:
Great Lakes Boxer Club

Re: Some Judges Just Don't Know The Breed Standard

quote:

---

Originally posted by John W. Chance
I just got home form the Conroe, TX show cluster where, in both shows Saturday, the Judges awarded Best Champion and Best of Breed to a Rat Terrier whose ear carriage/set was dissimilar (and the dog is over one year of age), who had flat feet, whose toes were splayed, whose pasterns were very week, and whose front feet notabley paddled while gaiting. This was one of the most pitiful examples of a Rat Terrier I have seen in a very long time, BUT...the dog was being handled by a perrenial Top 10 exhibitor who has shown before both of these Judges on many prior occasions all over this country.

This was not the only problem with these two Judges. The American Eskimo exhibitors and Alaskan Klee Kai exhibitors, among those I know of, were also upset about how their breed had been Judged. Several formal complaints have been lodged with the Event Chairperson, and I know of one, my own, that will also be forwarded to Mark Threlfall.


John W. Chance
jwchance@consolidated.net

---

__________________
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Complaints about Judges

Official UKC Conformation Rulebook
Section VII, Paragraph C (3)

"When a person observes misconduct by a member of the Event Committee or a Judge at an event.
Any person who becomes aware of an act of misconduct by a member of the Event Committee or a Judge during the hours of an event must file a complaint in accordance with this Section. Complaints about a Judge’s placements must be dealt with in accordance with Section XVIII, Paragraph A."

Official UKC Conformation Rulebook
Section XVIII, Paragraph A.
"Complaints about the Judge’s placements.
By entering in a UKC event, the exhibitor is inviting the opinion of the Judge and must
accept the Judge’s decision as final. Exhibitors are encouraged to discuss placements with Judges but may not argue about the Judge's final placements. Complaints about the Judge may only be lodged with the host club if the exhibitor believes the Judge has violated a specific UKC rule. Complaints about a Judge’s knowledge of the breed may be filed with UKC but must address specific deficiencies. Electronic audio or video recordings will not be considered by UKC when reviewing a Judge’s competency to judge a breed."

These are the paragraphs dealing with Misconduct by a Judge.

We do not honor unsigned complaints, postings on message boards, messages forwarded from third parties, unverified allegations, verbal complaints, innuendo or any other such forms of communication that do not specifically address a Judge's inadequacies. We feel that if someone makes a serious allegation against a Judge, it must be signed by the person making the charge or it is useless to us as substantiation of a claim.

In the same vein, one complaint is not sufficient for UKC to take action against a judge. Maybe this frustrates a person making a complaint, but if one person's opinion on any given day of any individual's competency was sufficient to discipline that person, there wouldn't be any people in dogs. Instead, we look at the history of complaints and make decisions based on a preponderance of evidence of an individual's inadequacy. That is why we make complaints part of a file and that file is reviewed every time something is added to it.

The truth is, the vast majority of people never make a complaint to UKC; they do so to each other on message boards and on the telephone, but UKC never hears of it. I can honestly state that we do not receive 10 complaints per year on Judges. UKC can't take action when we are not informed that a problem exists.

The other claim is that people fear reprisals from other judges if they make a complaint. That might make sense if we made their complaints public, but we do not. It also begs the question that if a person is sufficiently dissatisfied with a Judge's abilities to make a complaint, why would they worry about the Judge blackballing them in the future? If you complain about a Judge and then show to them again, you have only yourself to blame if the Judge doesn't judge a class or breed the way you feel it should be judged. If people continue to boycott a Judge, this sends a message to the club not to hire that individual again. If not enough people boycott the Judge and the club continues to hire that person, then your opinion is in the minority and you must be satisfied making a personal statement.

Mark E. Threlfall
Executive Vice President
United Kennel Club, Inc.

First, I want to tell you a little story about another registry we show in... We were showing in the UKC rings for a little over a year and decided it was time to expand our showing experiences so we decided to show in the AKC rings as well. At one of our first shows our male won Best of Winners in a very large class. After judging was over we asked one of the judges what we could do to help our dog win in the Breed ring. The judge flat-out told us to our face "I would have placed your dog for breed, but he isn't a special (champion) yet". The other person who was talking with the judge gave us an odd look, said "novices", and just shook her head and walked away. Little did we know at the time the other person was the judge at the Sunday show. After our dog was on the table and started doing the up and back, before we even got half-way down she started examining the next dog that was being placed on the table. Now... Do you still wanna talk politics?

Now I'm not saying that the UKC doesn't have some politics going on as well. But it is nowhere near the level it is in some of the other registries.

Second. We have shown under the judges that you have talked about quite a few times. I have records of all of their placements in our breed for every time we have shown under them. They have placed newbies and experienced exhibitors alike. They have also always placed the best dog in the ring that day. I can tell you for sure that they have not played any favoritism in our rings.

Anyone ever notice how it usually seems to be the newer folks to this board who complain and trash talk the most? If you truly feel they did not judge fairly, then don't show under them again. If enough people share your views, then no one will be at the show. If enough people do not show, then the club will get the hint not to hire these judges again. But I truly believe that this will NOT be the case.

__________________
Rob Brown
Island American Eskimos
http://www.islandeskie.com

I've always found the most effective way to deal with bad judges is directly with the show committee. At one AKC show, the Novice A obedience judge made several derogatory comments about various 'non-traditional' obedience breeds to their handlers as they were entering the ring (completely uncalled for!), and was otherwise pretty surly with exhibitors - pretty much the last thing you'd want for beginning competitors. I wasn't in the class, but a friend of mine (in her first ever trial) was, and was pretty upset about the insulting things he had said about her breed. When the class was over, I went and found the Obedience Chairperson, told her what had happened, and suggested (nicely) that while he may be a perfectly competent judge, if they hired him in future, they should probably not have him judge the 'A' classes.
At another show, one of the judges was known to have some ethical issues (falsified registration, political judging). Several of us opted not to enter, but most of us did either write to or talk to the show secretary to let her know why we wouldn't be entering - when a club offical hears from multiple people regarding the same issue, they tend to pay attention.
I prefer to be pro-active regarding judges, and have been known to sit down with a few friends, and make a list of judges that we consider knowledgable and ethical. and then submit it to the club for their consideration. With multiple judges to choose from, and multiple signatures, it lets the club know that you are more concerned with the overal quality of the judges, instead of just trying to get a judge that likes your dog, and will be given more consideration. I'd much rather have input into having quality judging before the show than complain about poor judging after the fact.
Laurie

I know that one show dog list that I'm on, they've suggested to send in empty entry forms to the show giving club and informing them that they've lost their dog entry due to the particular judge that they've picked. Not sure if this is a better way to handle something like this. In my years of showing, I will give the judges usually a 2nd time as the 'conditions' of the class are usually never repeated so.....if that 2nd time is bad, they are pretty well on my DNS - do not show- to list. I do not have a very long list in UKC at all but.....a female judge last Sept made it and then this other one that I had mentioned above. 3 judges out of nearly 11 years of showing in UKC is not bad. It's just the quirks of the dog showing 'game', I guess.

-donna

__________________
-donna

To: Mark Threlfal

Mark,

I appreciate your candor in this matter, your firm stand and your position in the matter of supporting those who have "legitimate compaints" with the actions of a UKC judge.

The post you made here advising the exhibitors that they "do have a voice" and there is a process in UKC by which they can make thier voice heard will hopefully be utilized by more exhibitors so that UKC can make substantive decisions regarding legitimate judging deficiencies.

We at RhoadHosue appreciate your clarification of UKC's position on this matter.

__________________
IN THE PURSUIT OF PERFECTION, EXCELLENCE OFTEN OCCURS.

Gerald W. "Jerry" Smith
Senior United Kennel Club Judge #2785 (Retired)
All Breeds except Belgians
APBT Inspector
All Breed Judge for the National Kennel Club
All Breed Judge for the National Canine Association
All breed Judge for the States Kennel Club
Judge for the Australian Shepherd Club of America
319 Section House Rd
Ennis, TX 75119
Home - 972-875-1060
Cell - 469-383-2530
jsbeagles2@yahoo.com

quote:

---

Originally posted by donna kolaski
Extreme shyness is a disqualification in my breed of australian shepherds.

---

__________________
Gail Karamalegos
Callisto Australian Shepherds
www.callistoaussies.com

color & disqualifications

In my breed, I have wittnessed several times, with several different judges a dog being put up, not to a win over anything good, but just winning it's class even with nothing else in it, when it had a disqualifying color. I am currently studying to become a judge & have asked judges why they didn't at least withhold the ribbon on a dog with a red or rust color to it's coat & all of them said they didn't know it was a disqualifying factor. I think having to breed so many dogs to champoinship doesn't make you a good judge & doesn't make you know other breeds. I don't think these are good criteria to have to become a judge. I haven't bred for 10 years & no more about more breeds then some judges I have met, simply because of studying my standards & putting my hands on seveal breeds & asking questions, along with handling several breeds to get more experience.

__________________
Rebecca, Home of KDT German Shorthairs at www.kdtgermanshorthairs.com

Hunter~ AM/CAN CH - UKC GRND CH Heidabrandt Hunters Choice CGC - Top ten standings = 10 in 2003, 1 in 2004, 2 in 2005, 2 in 2006 - Multi BIS & RBIS winner (5/24/02 ~ 3/30/11 RIP my beloved boy!)

Blaze~ AM/CAN / Int'l CH, UKC UNJ UWPS UWPCHX GRCH KDT's Blazin' Bleugras JH RE VC CGC TDI- Top ten standings = 2 in 2004, 1 in 2005, Top ten BOB & #4 in Top Ten finals in 2005, 1 in 2006, 1 in 2007, 2 in 2008 - Multi BIS, RBIS, BISS winner, multi total dog winner (1st GSP to ever achieve all weight pull titles!!) Currently holding 20 titles in different venues!

Rose~ AM CH / Int'l CH, UKC UWP GRCH KDT's First Morning's Rose - (AKC GRP 4) 8 in 2006 - 2 in 2007, 1 BPIS, 1 RBIS, BOB top ten @ Premier in 2007 - Now only the 3rd GSP to have a UWP title in history! 2 legs towards JH

Aero~ Int'l CH, UCK CH KDT's German Chocolate -
2 GRP 2 - 2 leg towards grand

Faith~ Int'l/Nat'l CH KDT's Believe In Your Dreams CGC (2 legs towards AKC JH)

Wendy~ Int'l/Nat'l - UKC GRCH KDT's Dare To Dream CGC
AKC pointed, several MBIS - 7 GRP 1 - 1 GRP 4, 1 GRP 3, 2 GRP 2- #3 in Top Ten 2011

Clay~ Int'l/Nat'l/UKC CH KDT's High Achiever CGC TDI
Best Bred By Ex Int'l & GRP 3 - 1 GRP 2 in UKC & 2 legs towards GRCH Therapy dog


Charlie~ UJJ UKC CH KDT's Fantasy Date JH - (Co-owner/handler - Vanessa Dalton) 1 GRP 1, 3, & 2 GRP 4 in UKC 1 RBPS in UKC

Legend~ Nat'l / Int'l - UKC GRCH Bleugras I Am Legend For KDT - (R.I.P. 7/29/08 ~ 5/18/10) # 2 Top Ten 2009 -(1 UKC BPIS) - graduated 2 Intro to obedience classes- 1 GR 1, UKC - Now AKC pointed! - 1 Gr1, 2 Gr 2 & 1 GR3 in IABCA

Star~ UKC CH KDT's First Morning Star RN, RA, RE- owned by Christine K (1 UKC grand leg - AKC pointed)


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Gail,
UKC lists extreme shyness as a disqualifying fault in their australian shepherd breed standard. I was showing in UKC and commenting on a dog exhibiting at a UKC event under the UKC breed standard of australian shepherds NOT by ASCA or AKC standards which do NOT have it as a DQ. In MY opinion and others at the ring side, a dog showing extreme shyness such as this dog, it should have been disqualified. Yes, the judge did finally get his hands on the dog but.....after it was man handled and held in place. I am sure that the exhibitor was probably surprised at their dog's behavior but......it continued with the other shows it was shown in that weekend. Live and learn, I won't show to that judge who had to man handle the dog, his opinion of any of my dogs in the future is not worth anything to me now.
-donna

__________________
-donna

Reba524 I'm with you on this one

You said; "I think having to breed so many dogs to champoinship doesn't make you a good judge & doesn't make you know other breeds. I don't think these are good criteria to have to become a judge."

Based upon the UKC's requirements: I've bred 2 GRCH and 2 CH; I've titled 2 GRCH and 2 Ch that I didn't breed, and in another 4 years I will have been in the business of breeding dogs for 10 years and I qualify to be a judge. Do I want the job and will I apply for a license? NO!! Heck, I'm even married to a UKC judge so I have my own live-in tutor/mentor - but I still won't apply for a license because despite what I know and the experience I will have after 10 years, it is still not sufficient to qualify me for an "All-Breed" license.

While I don't believe UKC needs to go to the extremes used by AKC to license judges, I'd like to see UKC adopt a more stringent evaluation and testing process for individuals seeking thier All Breed license.

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AS an exhibitor, I don't think it is too much to ask that the judge know the breed standard when he/she walks in the ring, especially an All Breed Judge. After all, I am paying for thier "expert opinion" and evaluation. At the very least, I'd appreciate it if the Judge takes advantage of the tools at hand (copies of the B. Std. provided by the host club) and reads the breed standard before judging my breed. Senior Judges Susan Nikkel and Kathy Short carry their own breed standard notebooks to every show they judge. I've also been there when my spouse has asked the Show Secretary for a copy of the Breed Std. so I know this is a viable option for judges.

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Mark has provided the UKC complaint process and others have given many good ideas in this string for expressing opinions about judges in an effective and constructive manner. I already vote with my $$$$ when deciding what shows to attend and which judges I will or will not support. I believe exhibitor's have a number of ways to express their views.

Thank you,

Cherie Rhoad

Cherie, thanks for your post.

Just to clarify one point: the UKC does not approve people for "All Breeds." We approve them as judges. We don't tell them that they are All Breed judges. The approval to judge is defined this way:
The United Kennel Club expects judges to accept assignments only for those breeds they feel capable of judging competently. Any judge that consistently accepts assignments in a breed or breeds that he has demonstrated a lack of ability to judge may lose their United Kennel Club judging privileges. Judges are approved to judge at the discretion of the United Kennel Club. Judging is not a right; it is a privilege. We expect prospective judges to acknowledge the gravity of accepting judging assignments in breeds new to them.

Upon approval, you can judge any breed you have studied and feel you can do a credible job of judging. You SHOULD NOT accept assignments in breeds you know very little about, or you may face the loss of your judging privileges.

quote:

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Originally posted by donna kolaski
Gail,
UKC lists extreme shyness as a disqualifying fault in their australian shepherd breed standard.

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__________________
Gail Karamalegos
Callisto Australian Shepherds
www.callistoaussies.com

To Valerie of Vintage Kennels . .

You are to be commended and applauded for your loyalty.

I did not attend the Conroe, TX show and so did not witness the judging in Mr. Chance's complaint. I did however, go to the UKC schedule to see who the judges were that elicited his ire. I still will not comment on the merits of the dog who won the BOB since I was not there & did not see it. However, I will tell you why these two judges will never see another RhoadHouse dog.

While as an exhibitor at The Mississippi State APBT club in March 2005 these two judges displayed a lack of knowledge of the Rat
Terrier breed standard by performing the following procedures on all the Rat Terrier entries.

Both judges spanned each Rat Terrier entry as if they were JRT’s. Then they attempted to fold the dogs in half by bringing the croup of the dog around to the nose of the dog. When I asked why, I was told specifically by each of them that the Rat Terrier had to be able to enter and turn around in a 9-inch pipe. One of them even confided that she had been trained in this prosedure by a Senior All Breed Judge and Eskie Breeder. I informed them that RT is a field hunter and the standard does not ask that they be checked for span ability nor for the ability to turn around in a 9-inch pipe.

Neither my dog (the CH) nor his LARGER 1/2 sibling (the GRCH) could be spanned or folded. Both the CH & GRCH were too big to enter a 9-inch pipe let alone turn around in it. So what was ultimately ironic about this judging practice is that both of the judges awarded the BOB to the GRCH who was impossible to span (too large) and unable to bend in half.

One thing that I believe sets UKC apart from AKC is the belief that we must never lose sight of the "FUNCTIONALITY" of our dogs, even in the conformation ring. Our dogs must be able to perform in the way they were designed andif they can't, then they are "out-of-spec" if you will. If these judges were using this particular criteria (span ability & bend ability) to determine whether a dog was fit to perform the function "they believed" it was designed for, then I find it peculiar that a dog that did not meet this criteria won. Keeping in mind that based upon their judging criteria, my dog should not have won either - so I cannot cry sour grapes.

BTW, 4 years ago at a show in the Seattle area the Senior All Breed Judge and Eskie breeder who taught them span and fold Rat Terriers, was informed by me and 3 other Rat Terrier breeder/exhibitors that our dogs were NOT to be spanned or folded. It would appear that this lady still hasn't read the breed standard.

I understand from a post (by the dog's owner handler) on another venue that the dog that won the breed in Conroe measures 18.5 inches. The Rat Terrier Breed Standard states the following regarding size:

Standard Variety: Over 13 inches but not exceeding 18 inches, measured at the withers.

Faults: Height over 19 inches; obesity.

While the winning dog cannot be faulted for being over 18 inches, it is not a prefered size. However, IF the judges are still using the "must be able to enter and turn in a 9-inch pipe" as part of their judging criteria, what does that say about their selection of the winning dog in Conroe?

For the record, RhoadHouse has lodged a formal complaint against these judges with the UKC for their actions last year. UKC will handle that complaint in accordance with thier standard operationg procedures. As an exhibitor, those judges will never see my dogs again and I will not support clubs who hire them. That is how Jerry and I will handle questionalbe judging from this point forward.

MY point being, to those who like to complain, if you have a problem - use the system - we will.

Thank you,

Cherie Rhoad

Judging Complaints?

In the past I did send in a complaint about 1 Judge. I entered under her twice because I thought that it might be just a bad day. The people and chair people at both shows were offended by the events that led up to it.

When I did send in a letter, I Also sent a copy to the others who were exhibiting in that class, that day and to the judge as well. If the judge doesnt know that there is a problem, How can they address it?

I later heard that she posted my letter to the judges board, and slammed the AKK breeders and me for my letter.

But, I also hear that the others on that board were less than sympathetic to what she had to say about it.


If you have a complaint, File it. No reason to be afraid other juges will blame you. That is NOT what I have seen with the what was done in my case.

__________________
Barbara Williams
www.kleekai.us