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Breed Standards/Ignorance of BSJ

Hopefully this picture comes out good enough that the brindle can be seen. We have been told by a few BSJ`s that this dog does not meet it`s breed standard because of it`s color and lack of brindle markings. One said that he does not like Plotts and does not consider them a coon hound [ bad part about that is this man is one of the most honest men I know but he has no use for a plott ] I wish that BSJ`s would read over the breed standards and give every dog it`s due. I`ve lost my share of shows to good dogs and will again but to make statements like that is wrong no matter who it is.
I am a BSJ and i`m not near the best but I will give a dog a fair shake and I don`t care who is behind the dog or who the owner is, if that dog has the best breed standards that day it will win.
I personally own B&T`s that is my breed of choice but I think a dark blue bluetick is the best looking hound in the world.
To sum up what I`m ranting about don`t cheat a dog out of a win because who owns it or is showing it, ignorance is not knowing any better, stupid is knowing and still doing it.
I might add that several of the well know BSJ`s have picked her and told us how well she meets her standards.

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Michael Marcum
903-928-2992
I judge dogs to my interpertation of the breed standards, not who is behind / owns the dog.

Re: Breed Standards/Ignorance of BSJ

quote:

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Originally posted by mmarcum52


ignorance is not knowing any better, stupid is knowing and still doing it.

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I expect a person who has passed the BSJ requirements to know the standards nothing more nothing less and to be fair, that`s not to much to ask for.

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Michael Marcum
903-928-2992
I judge dogs to my interpertation of the breed standards, not who is behind / owns the dog.

I hear what you are saying. I did a little confirmation showing about 15 years ago and didn't enjoy it at all. I finally realized that people will be people and I was the only one, spending money no less, that kept subjecting myself to the opinions of others and being force fed their ideals. My only purpose for doing the confirmation shows was to compare my conditioned animals to others. I learned and seen what I needed and back to the performance arena I went. I have never looked back and not felt bad for it one bit.

I lighten the pic for you.
As for blame...an individual who is showing dogs MUST accept whatever judge is selected by the stripes who are in charge of selecting the said judge. If I were going to blame....thats where I would start...if the hound meets the standard...I'd not stop until the said judge was culled.

Thanks, we did not know how some of the judges where but we learned and the ones we know and won`t waste our money on those shows. But will go where the qualified judge is.

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Michael Marcum
903-928-2992
I judge dogs to my interpertation of the breed standards, not who is behind / owns the dog.

I feel your pain. When I was showing my black and white dog I was told more than once she needed more tan.

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Jessica McRae
3 Color Kennel
Treeing Walker Coonhounds and German Shepherd Dogs

Where does it say a Plott has to be brindle colored? Some Plotts ...allot of plotts, are black with little to no brindle showing. If he doesn't like plotts, he shouldn;t be a judge of a show where a plott could very likely show up. Report him to UKC, he should have his license pulled for not being able to get past his own bias'. Have you lodged a formal complaint?

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MIKE

I feel your pain - I've discovered it's often tougher to win with a Plott because judges don't seem to know and UNDERSTAND the breed standards. Comments by various BSJs have graphically illustrated this several times. BSJs who critique the dogs they've judged, often show their lack of knowledge and actually insult the exhibitors handling excellent breed specimens.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mjflores
Where does it say a Plott has to be brindle colored? Some Plotts ...allot of plotts, are black with little to no brindle showing. If he doesn't like plotts, he shouldn;t be a judge of a show where a plott could very likely show up. Report him to UKC, he should have his license pulled for not being able to get past his own bias'. Have you lodged a formal complaint?

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The Plott

Clearly has visible brindle coloring& shouldn't be critisized because it is a plott. Oh & by the way the fellow being told his dog needed more tan is ridiculous. As long as they both meet breed standards it isn't an issue. The dog needing more tan obviously wasn't a case of albinism or it would have been against standards & should be reported. I'm a BSJ & pick what meets standards best, but if they're both equal in this department will go with the one that looks& cooperates the best on anygiven day. I look at gaiting hard to in my decisions & not who's handling them. Iwent against a dog that's the new breed standard in one breed in that it looked more like a fineboned shorthaired companion dog than a coonhound & wasn't presented to the best of the handlers ability because & only because handler thought they were a shoe in. When this handler ??? this I let her know my reasoning was that this was a coonhound show& I didn't think the dog represented the true coonhound best & she still doesn't by far in my opinion. I firmly believe look like a hound & act like a hound. Not a terrier or poodle & judge in this fashion & that's the only complaint i've ever had. This dog has won all over the country too & is pitiful in my opinion. But we all have one.....so.

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No we haven`t filed a complaint, they told that to just my wife where no one heard. It would be her word against theirs.
Jessica, your right, where in the walkers does it say how much tan should it have? or how about "it`s toe nails are to long?" thats one of my biggest gripes, show me anywhere in the book it says your COON HOUND that needs toe nails to run with, climb up creek banks, or hold the side of a tree should have it`s nails cut off so short.!!! if the hound`s feet meet the standards thats all you need. I personally won`t fault a dog with longer nails when I judge.

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Michael Marcum
903-928-2992
I judge dogs to my interpertation of the breed standards, not who is behind / owns the dog.

I recently was told about a judge that when he gave his reasoning for pickin a certain dog he said,"There's only two kind's of dog's,Walker's & Those that wanna be walker's"............


It is what it is & all you can do is avoid donateing money to the club's that utilize said blinder wearin judge's. In another sense,sometime's it's hard to even find one to do the judgin.

Unfortunately you are paying for one person & one only's opinion. One of the bad thing's about standin purty contest's that has alway's ruffled my feather's is those that do not know the breed standard's.

I've heard some description's of why "Ol Brummy" won over "Ditch" that are a sign of the unknown clearly printed standards.

Not a heck-of-a-lot you can do about it,sad but very true!

Nice lookin hound by the way!!

"I'm a BSJ & pick what meets standards best, but if they're both equal in this department will go with the one that looks& cooperates the best on anygiven day. I look at gaiting hard to in my decisions & not who's handling them. Iwent against a dog that's the new breed standard in one breed in that it looked more like a fineboned shorthaired companion dog than a coonhound & wasn't presented to the best of the handlers ability because & only because handler thought they were a shoe in. "

As a handler and a judge I have a big problem with this statement, because nowhere in the breed standards does it say anything about how the dogs are to be presented and it does not say anywhere anything about how the dogs cooperate either and if you are not looking at the handlers like you say you are not then how do you know if the dog was presented to the best of the handlers ability? Obviously you have prior knowledge of the handler in order to make that statement and you held it against them that in your opinion they weren't doing a good job handling their dog, so you didn't judge the dog you judged the way the dog was handled. The dogs are to be judged against their breed standard period. The only thing mentioned about the way they are to be handled is the statement that says they are to be benched, this kind of stuff really burns me up. It's one thing to get beat by a better dog but quite another to get beat by an inferior dog because a judge can't judge unless the dog's stand like statues.

This discussion

ALSO illustrates why Clubs should let exhibitors know who is judging when aked for this information. Why spend money to be insulted? I WILL drive 100+ additional miles to another area where I don't know the judges or sometimes even the club members (and I don't ask who is judging) instead of taking a chance on the usual "stuff happening."
One of the existing confusions seems to be that another KC DOES allow solid colors in Plotts and UKC requires brindling. I was recently at a local (other registry) bench show and overheard people suggesting that Marcum's Plott should be disqualified because of her color. I didn't say anything but probably should have told them to read the breed standard. However, that particular club (and it's not the only one) has members who don't appreciate my remarks so I sat with my B&T and Plott and kept quiet. As a BSJ I KNOW that Marcum's Plott meets the breed standard very well - I've seen her many times & she's also won (deserved wins) over MY entries.

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SKY
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Author of the novel "Follow Jennifer"

That's exactly what I'm talking about Ellie Mae, it's nonsense to be told that by a judge.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ellie Mae
I was under the impression that a bench show was to be judged on confomation not handling skills or in my case lack of them. It seems they are more like showmanship where you are judged on how you handle your victim. I was told my 6 month old pup was real nice and would've won but she moved a back foot on the bench, oops I had fun anyway!

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Jessica McRae
3 Color Kennel
Treeing Walker Coonhounds and German Shepherd Dogs

Thats the reason that ACCHA has booked Sid Underwood for the TX ST Youth Show at Palestine, Tx, he does know the standards. He is also going to do the B&T sectional at our 4th of July hunt.

__________________
Michael Marcum
903-928-2992
I judge dogs to my interpertation of the breed standards, not who is behind / owns the dog.

quote:

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Originally posted by mmarcum52
Thats the reason that ACCHA has booked Sid Underwood for the TX ST Youth Show at Palestine, Tx, he does know the standards. He is also going to do the B&T sectional at our 4th of July hunt.

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Jessica McRae
3 Color Kennel
Treeing Walker Coonhounds and German Shepherd Dogs

Sid is one of the best

And knowing he's judging I'd bring any of my dogs to that show.
Since TSCHA keeps the BSJs a SECRET for their events, and there's no way of knowing which dogs to bring (based on the rule for nbr. of wins under 1 judge being limited for titles) I'll take 3-4 dogs to another event elsewhere that weekend. Knowing who is judging at local TSCHA events would determine for me, which 3-4 dogs to bring. When I go to another area farther away, it's a judge who probably won't see my dogs more than once or twice in a year so I don't worry about the BSJ - just hope he/she likes my dogs.

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SKY
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Author of the novel "Follow Jennifer"

You all are full of it

I plainly said I expect dogs that I judge to look like a coonhound & not a terrier or something to that affect. They're supposed to be coonhounds not anything else. I also said the handler didn't show to the best of her ability & she didn't. She didn't try half as hard as the other handlers in the show did& they presented better. If they meet breed standards I'll definitley go with what conforms to them the best, but this a coonhound show & not a fufu dog show & i'll say it again if they don't look like hounds are supposed to I'm not going to pick them & if you show under me you will get treated fairly, but if they don't look like hounds they wont win plain & simple. I have made the same picks as a lot of the socalled bigtime judges & have disagreed on a few. Some win under some because of politics & none have ever won under me for reasons other than breed standards & when it's tough you have to go with representation inpart sometimes. Oh & for the record you wont see me have a handler move their dog in the finals of a show either just to help them out & pick them because of the you win under me & I'll win under you thing. So you all know what you can do!!! You bunch of crybabies grow up & get a hound& not a lapdog!!!

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Oh & for the record

There's a show at Stanford KY. I'll be judging Saturday night. Come on out & see if I judge it fairly. Or better yet bring a fufu looking dog that doesn't look like a hound & see if I pick it. If it looks like a hound & conforms best I will, but if it doesn't conform & the average Joe has one that conforms better he or she will definitley get picked & if yours conforms best you'll get picked. If they both conform equally I'll go with representation plain & simple. COME ON OUT!!! Oh & i said the plott plainly has brindle & I kind of like it myself.

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Sorry Mr Young if I typed anything that offended. This is the dog I was told needed more tan, sorry only pic I have of her on the bench:

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Jessica McRae
3 Color Kennel
Treeing Walker Coonhounds and German Shepherd Dogs

Les

What's a fufu dog? How can a hound be called a fufu dog? I can't get a visual to appear in my head, of a 'fufu" dog in a coonhound show. Give us a description.
If you were closer I'd bring my "crew" to your show for you to judge.

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Author of the novel "Follow Jennifer"

This dog looks nice to me

As you & I both know the breed standards say(white-black-tan) is preferred. It also says ( white with tan spots or white with black spots) is acceptable. I see nothing wrong at all & think this is a nice looking dog. I may have read something wrong & if I did I'm sorry. I also said the plott clearly had visible brindle & there was no way of denying it. I too thought it looked nice.Now I may of got a little carried away, but the dog i'm talking about that I didn't pick didn't come nearly as close to looking hound like& as close to breed standards as yours does & I personally think yours is a nice dog. If I misread & got carried away I apoligize, but I like a hound to look like a hound & always will. I just can't stand seeing these dogs that don't look like a true hunting dog should look winning

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Home Of:
S.S. & Performance Sire
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