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July's Coonhound Advisor

Just got my July Bloodlines mag. I headed straight to the Advisor column like I always do and got a bit of a surprise with the second question tackled which involved a dog treed on a den den with both a possum and a coon.
Right up front, Paul commented that it is very doubtful that any of us will ever see this exact situation during our nite hunt careers so this is one of those questions that is much more about the discussion than it will ever be about any practical application of the ruling. But I sure think Paul missed on this one. Why? Well, because forever it has been ruled that any time a dog(s) tree on tree that that holds both off game and a coon, you plus the dog for the coon. I'm not aware of any instance where UKC has ever ruled otherwise. And in this Advisor article, Paul confirms that. Coon and possum on outside, he says plus it. Coon outside, possum inside den, plus it. But then he comes up with this exception for a coon on the outside, possum in a hole in the bottom of the tree just out of dogs reach, minus or scratch for off game. The reasoning being that we all know the dog treed the possum that it was obviously trying to pull out if it could have reached it. All of this makes sense and seems the right way to handle it until you consider the way things work in the real world. This ruling in the Advisor now opens the door for another argument in the woods every time a den is made with any off game and a coon. Now the judge has to decide is the offgame in that den positioned to indicate the dog treed the offgame or does that judge rule the old way that said off game in a den/coon outside gets plussed for the coon. In the real word,, this new ruling will be another reason to argue in the woods. I'm thinking it would have been better just to say, look, this particular situation is a once-in-10-lifetimes situation so we are gonna just stay consistent with how we have always ruled and say if a coon is seen in the tree, plus it regardless of anything else. Sure this would have resulted in this dog getting plussed for very likely having treed a possum but considering that it is such a rare situation and that in every other instance UKC says plus it, it would have been much better for our judges if Paul had just said plus this one too.
What do others think?

__________________
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Jim,

I hope you realize I don't just write these articles based on my own knowledge and experience with the rules. I talk to Todd and Allen, they proof my articles before they are ever sent to magazine department, and they approve what is written. I'd hate to think I'd have to go it alone, especially with all the experience those two have writing the very same article.

Notice the sentence: "This is probably the only time we would not give the benefit of the doubt when a coon and off game are seen in the same tree." It's not the fact that the possum is just out of the dogs reach but that the dog is actively trying to get in the hole trying to get the possum. I think we can all be honest with ourselves, and our dogs, that this dog is treeing a possum and should not receive the benefit of the doubt.

Now, everyone have a great holiday weekend. I'm on vacation for the rest of the week on a coon hunting trek in southern Illinois. Probably should have brought an air-boat to hunt out of though!

__________________
Paul Frederick
319-371-6362

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paul Frederick
I think we can all be honest with ourselves, and our dogs, that this dog is treeing a possum and should not receive the benefit of the doubt.

---

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If it's my dog she treed the coon , PLUS! If it's your dog he treed the possum, MINUS! See there's no problem.

I posted this as what you will hear from the handlers on the cast by how it will effect each one, and if questioned what the MOH will be hearing from cast members.

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I think the words, " actively trying to get the possum out of the hole ", may be words to lock away in the old brain housing group !!!

Same tree, but all dogs scored different.

coon way out on a limb dog a is right under it treeing...plus him up.

dog b is treeing in the root system under tree nothing seen... circle him.

dog c is on the front side of the tree with his head in a hollow, possum inside...minus him

dog d comes into tree after the cast arrives and joins...????

Dog a what do you do?

Dog b what do you do?

Dog c what do you do?

__________________
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quote:

---

Originally posted by joey
Ya we can be honest with ourselves about our dogs but most will not be honest with each other. It will be a huge argument when we start arguing the intentions of a dog.

---

__________________
Bad decisions make good stories.

Jim,
I thought the samething when I read it. I could not believe that was the answer on the question. If it had been my dog I would have questioned it and I still will. The rules say if a coon is in the tree you plus it.

As rare an occurance as this would be i imagine the only negative result of this opinion will be the inconsistancy with past rulings.
Suppose now there is a dog on a tree with a possum and a coon, the dog is under a low limb treeing straight up at a possum 3 feet over his head, The dog under the possum gets plussed eventhough we know it is barking at the possum just like the dog in Pauls scenario.
Seems kinda inconsistent.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

advisor

The coon could of passed the oppossum on its way up.I 'll never see this situation,i agree with Jim.They prolly should leave that rule alone.

Without going into what may or may not have happened with the dog, the tree, the possum and the coon, the problem I see is we now have dueling Advisor columns.

__________________
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AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

We are out there to tree coon right? All that matters is a coon is in a tree and that should be all anyone's focus is on.

__________________
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Jim dag gum

I'M wrong again and I got a rule book.( he. he.) I did the same thing THEN read the reply and darn I'M wrong. hummmmmm even more confused than before. You see my dog ran that coon in the hole then that darn possun ran him out and he went up the tree, ALWAYS GIVE THE DOG THE BENEFIT, ever read that?

__________________
SHAWNEE HILL'S BLACK AND TANS

CONFUSING

What if there were 2 , 3 or 4 dogs, one in the hole at the base of tree actively going after the possum, others are treein, do you minus one and plus the others?

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draw a line through it , delete it and go on to next drop . I don't see how you can plus one dog based on their position on a tree , just cause on dog is treed under the coon and another under a possum doesn't really justify what they where running through the woods , to me I would say delete it would be the best thing , no plus no minus .

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Dag Gum Guys

Don't matter what U think what does the rule's say. That what matters don't it? Just wondering....

__________________
SHAWNEE HILL'S BLACK AND TANS

probably more like what is the moh going to say that's the real question ! many are old and sitting at computer not high on there list there going to decide based on what they believe to be right answer or the answer that they have been giving for many years which was right until the new advisor in july bloodlines now all you 2 hour maniacs should take july's bloodlines and put it in your truck since the advisor that's at the club house is many years old if there's one there at all !

Yeah, this one should have been left alone. Coon and possum in the tree, Plus it. Tom

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I think the main point to Paul's article was you have to picture a tree with a coon sitting in it let's say twenty feet up. One dog has its head stuck in a hole at the base of the tree baying something and trying to dig its way into the hole. Two dogs on the side of the tree blowing the top out. The two dogs treeing are leashed and tied back. The dog in the hole is pulled back and tied. The cast looks inside the hole in the tree and boom there is ol slick tail. The dog was obviously trying to get to the possum and was not interested in treeing UP the tree. The other two dogs however never showed any interest in the hole or possum. I can see what he is saying. The dog with its head in the hole was obviously after off game. The other two dogs not so much. The point is the hole being at the base of the tree or where a dog could actively try to reach the off game. I could see where one dog could get minused and the other two plussed. If coon and possum are both out of dogs reach and being treed in the same tree then plus it up.

__________________
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Brian Teague 252-649-3050

HERE WE GO AGAIN

I would do this, I would do that, What if this, What If that, This happened then, but that also happened, My opinion is this, My opinion is that....... OPINIONS ARE ONLY GOOD IN BENCH SHOW JUDGING........... There are RULES AND PRINTED RULES I MIGHT ADD that night hunts are governed by PERIOD. Read and try to understand what jim stated in his last post. DUH we now have dueling Advisor colums. NOW jim I HAVE TROUBLE WITH ANOTHER POST U HAVE "NOT GOING TO WAIST HUNTING TIME EXPLAINING WHAT THE RULES ARE" - MY DOG'S ON THIS ONE, so NOW YOU GOT MY $ IN HAND AND WE GONA GO TO THE M/H AND SEE WHAT HE THINKS ABOUT ABOUT POSSUM IN HOLE COON IN TREE. .............YEP U are corrct again DUELING Advisors again ........... CONFUSED AGAIN.
Now how about this one a coon in ths same hole ABOVE the possum U look in see the possun and now you ASUME that is all in the hole. O I know get a stick pry the possun out to see if there is anything else in hole.......... WRONG............ Scratched or even barred because you could be charged with MOLESTING GAME during hunting time......... See Dueling Advisors not BANJOS.

__________________
SHAWNEE HILL'S BLACK AND TANS

So what your saying is, 3 dogs tree but only one can get his head in the hole aka den, the other two are looking straight up an the tree is slick, one dog that's treeing in the hole gets circled the other two gets minus????

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R U asking me

MY answer to that would be this WHAT DOES THE RULE BOOK SAY. U see it dont matter what I think or U think what rule applies to the event taking place as it is happening at that moment. Now that is my poinion. Next question is what does the rule book state should happen?
You see how confusing these post can get now there is a whole different senarios about a subject that was never discussed, go back to jim's post and he simply stated in his opinion there were Dueling Advisor colums and there sure are. I THINK
Score it as U wish that seems to be the way it is now days.
............... Aint gona say no more dun said way too much apply the rules to what is going on at the moment if a person can't or wont, then dont participate cause ther is gonna be confusion along the way. confusion leads to discussion discussion leads to arguing that leads to loosing your temper and we all know what that leads to. NOW THAT ALL FOLKS SEE U DOWN THE ROAD. H L Meyer

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Looks like this one made it print just in time for the July issue, and with it, the fireworks begin. lol

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i look at it this way. if dog is obveously treeing or baying in the hole in the tree where possum is he should be minused.

but if other dogs are treeing up the tree it would be hard to minus 1 dog & plus others on same tree.

that would be a tuff call.

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how many dogs can get there heads in the den and if it dont
have enough guts to pull it out well who knows