UKC Forums - Can the fast and far running dog be kept in the small hunting plots of tomorrow?

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 12-17-2009 03:11 AM:

Can the fast and far running dog be kept in the small hunting plots of tomorrow?

I am wondering if people are going to have to change what they are breeding for now or can these trainers get these fast deep running dogs to stay in smaller tracks of hunting ground that we keep getting squeezed into?

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Posted by burdette on 12-17-2009 03:15 AM:

i have a female that didnt handle good at all. she would go all night on a bad night. i worked her with a shock collar now i can patch hunt her. it is getting tough hunting today with all the land being divided up!!!

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Posted by Chris Herring on 12-17-2009 03:27 AM:

I would not be surprised to see this as a desirable trait in the near future. In my area it is nice to have a dog that hunts out about 20 to 30 minutes and checks back...I hear others talk about how they hate that???? They must have bigger woods and less travelled roads than I have?

Even more importantly than hunting a bit closer is the need to have a dog trained to come when called. This is an easy to teach task, can save a trespassing charge, might allow you to make deadline or even save a dogs life, yet there are lots of coonhounds that are not taught this basic command????

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 12-17-2009 03:44 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Herring
I would not be surprised to see this as a desirable trait in the near future. In my area it is nice to have a dog that hunts out about 20 to 30 minutes and checks back...I hear others talk about how they hate that???? They must have bigger woods and less travelled roads than I have?

Even more importantly than hunting a bit closer is the need to have a dog trained to come when called. This is an easy to teach task, can save a trespassing charge, might allow you to make deadline or even save a dogs life, yet there are lots of coonhounds that are not taught this basic command????

Couldn't agree more. Some are still training and braging becouse there dog will go as far as it takes to find a coon. My argument is that on a lot of these dogs they are braging about a good dog will find coon behind them. In hunts you have to call time out to go find there dogs after scoreing a tree for a dog that got one close.
One thing about it. In the future the highway will cull that type of dogs.

Posted by jculler8 on 12-17-2009 03:48 AM:

Truth is... a good dog will go until it finds a track it can tree. A Garmin is used to call them back when they're gettin close to a road. That's a good dog for ya.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 12-17-2009 03:57 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jculler8
Truth is... a good dog will go until it finds a track it can tree. A Garmin is used to call them back when they're gettin close to a road. That's a good dog for ya.

Did you not read the post. We were talking about the dogs that go further than they have to to find a coon. What I am saying is if mine trees in 1/4 mile and yours goes out of hearing who has the best dog?
One more thing, A GOOD DOG is a matter of opinion. Everyone has a differant opinion of what one is. Like me I will take the 1/4 mile dog every time as long as if the coon isn't in the first 1/4 mile he will keep going till he finds one or I cal him back. I better not have to go get him though.
Oh you can't call one back with a Garmin either and most can't call there dogs in. You can watch it get hit on the Garmin though.

Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 12-17-2009 04:51 AM:

nowhere in the post does it talk about 1st dog to the 1/4
mile mark wins.there must be a reason these kc have
started reg house dogs.

Posted by josh on 12-17-2009 05:03 AM:

You turn a dog loose and it gets treed....repeat a few times a night, every night for a couple years and guess what?

Your dog will learn to hunt till it gets treed.

I would be interested in learning how to train a dog to pass on a close coon to tree a deep one...Do they smell diffent the further away they are?

Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 12-17-2009 05:08 AM:

i dont know Josh but i would hate for mine to ride in the box
to a tree

Posted by tx slick tree on 12-17-2009 05:34 AM:

why do them dogs get so deep to get treed? simple they leave running like a race horse out of a starting box in a straight line until the run across a track. the dog that throws a circle and hunts an area will always tree one closer then the straight line go getter.

Posted by John Wittenborn on 12-17-2009 12:23 PM:

Grady,

to answer your question, I never tried to slow a dog down, I always wanted them to go until they smelled the first coon, & do their best to get it treed. IMO, it would be alot easier to keep them in a small area where the coon population was thick, like in Ind. Mich. & Ohio. But I guess it could be done???????????

I don't know where you live in Oklahoma, but I used to live west of Tulsa around the Mannford area, & I didn't have any trouble finding large tracts of land to hunt? One such area was just south of Mannford & was basically made up of 2 ranch's. It was around 7-8 miles, north & south between public roads & about 5-6 miles east & west between public roads. Also had a permission to hunt the Miller ranch south of Bixby & it was around 7,000 acre's, plus alot of the land along Big & Little Deep Fork down by Gypsy, south of Bristow. Had some pretty good hunting places up along Black Bear Creek around Pawnee, also some big areas up in Osage Co.

In most of these places you needed a dog to reach out & go hunting.

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Posted by Lakeland Kennel on 12-17-2009 12:48 PM:

The wide hunting is in the breeding. Now days, lots of hounds are competition bred. Hard wide hunters, medium to hot nosed that will pass over cold tracks to find a hot, pop up coon. Few people breed for a nose and even fewer people breed for medium to close hunter.

I predict that in the future, lots of folks will be switching to Mt Curs. I have some Mt Curs I mainly use as squirrel dogs. I do coon hunt them some and I have places I can get in and get out of with my Curs that I can't hunt with my hounds.

My Curs handle extremely well and I can call them to me at any time, even off of a tree. I have to go get most of my hounds. Getting hounds some times can be risky when they are treed in the wrong places.

Yes, I breed my hounds to hunt but I also put a nose on them so they won't pass over a cold track to find a hot one. But, in July, on kitten coon, over a feeder bucket, hot nosed hounds can win more titles than cold nosed hounds. Folks breed for titles.

Coon hunting here in Illinois has changed in the last 20 years and will only get worse. It is getting harder and harder to find a place to hunt. It won't be long before we won't be able to cast our hounds. I won't guide casts any more because of the wide hunting dogs getting on property I don't have permission to hunt.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 12-17-2009 02:53 PM:

Re: Grady,

quote:
Originally posted by John Wittenborn
to answer your question, I never tried to slow a dog down, I always wanted them to go until they smelled the first coon, & do their best to get it treed. IMO, it would be alot easier to keep them in a small area where the coon population was thick, like in Ind. Mich. & Ohio. But I guess it could be done???????????

I don't know where you live in Oklahoma, but I used to live west of Tulsa around the Mannford area, & I didn't have any trouble finding large tracts of land to hunt? One such area was just south of Mannford & was basically made up of 2 ranch's. It was around 7-8 miles, north & south between public roads & about 5-6 miles east & west between public roads. Also had a permission to hunt the Miller ranch south of Bixby & it was around 7,000 acre's, plus alot of the land along Big & Little Deep Fork down by Gypsy, south of Bristow. Had some pretty good hunting places up along Black Bear Creek around Pawnee, also some big areas up in Osage Co.

In most of these places you needed a dog to reach out & go hunting.

I live in north central. I don't ask the question becouse I have the problem. I am a barber with LOTS of farmer/rancher friends from a large area. I have several thousand private acres to hunt.
I ask becouse these hunts are put on all over the country and a lot of these run past a medium trail dogs to get to a real hot trail or just down wind air scent of a coon will not be able to be hunted in a lot of the comps.
Just becouse one of these types of dog run threw an area doesn't mean there isn't a coon that could had been treed in it.

I don't wouldn't want to slow the dogs down if they were mine. I would want to teach them to work a differant search pattern. Not hard to do when you start from a pup and some older ones can be changed.
This isn't to get anyone defensive that has a go deep dog. They have be bigest chance of wining a lot of the time. It is to discuss were the dogs are headed.

Posted by josh on 12-17-2009 03:24 PM:

Re: Re: Grady,

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg

I don't wouldn't want to slow the dogs down if they were mine. I would want to teach them to work a differant search pattern. Not hard to do when you start from a pup and some older ones can be changed.
This isn't to get anyone defensive that has a go deep dog. They have be bigest chance of wining a lot of the time. It is to discuss were the dogs are headed.

I have never had much luck making major changes in the ways a dog wants to hunt.

I guess I find humor in those that think they can micromanage every aspect of how and why a dog hunts...I mean seroiously, very , very few of us even hunt a dog that can produce a coon 50% of the time it is turned loose...(im sure most reading this are shaking their head thinking "not me") but its the truth, weather you want to admit it or not.

Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 12-17-2009 03:30 PM:

We have lots of coon here, but I never realized it until I started hunting my current dog. Her half brother would near ALWAYS be deep and treed with a coon, too deep for me. The female I have now who is his half sister trees twice the coon in the same areas twice as close.

Somtimes I think it has to do a little with brains and hunting the area out a little as opposed to running full tilt till you get tired then hunting. It helps a ton hunting dogs alone. They tend to go much less of a distance before they start doing something.

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Posted by HOBO on 12-17-2009 03:49 PM:

Any dog can be made to hunt close with a shock collar strapped around his neck.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 12-17-2009 03:50 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Grady,

quote:
Originally posted by josh
I have never had much luck making major changes in the ways a dog wants to hunt.

I guess I find humor in those that think they can micromanage every aspect of how and why a dog hunts...I mean seroiously, very , very few of us even hunt a dog that can produce a coon 50% of the time it is turned loose...(im sure most reading this are shaking their head thinking "not me") but its the truth, weather you want to admit it or not.

I laugh at the people that don't think you can control how far out a dog hunts. I can't teach it a particular patteren but I can deep it from going to far to fast. If it has energy it will run around and burn it in a smaller space thus covering area better.
Got nothing to do with the how or why it hunts. Just controlling how far it does it and can be done pretty easy if you teach it the very basic come command.
Oh while they are young you can put them at waters edge and teach them that is a good place to get a track. When they learn that they will go to water and work it every time you turn them loose down wind of it. Unless they find one on there way to the water.

Posted by josh on 12-17-2009 04:00 PM:

You can teach a dog to do about anything, but most of the time you will have unintended consequences that are far worse than the original problem...JMO

Posted by on 12-17-2009 04:06 PM:

I agree with Josh on this one and I have screwed up enough to have learned it the hard way. Like Hobe said, any dog can be made to hunt close with a shock collar, but you may not like what you got left.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 12-17-2009 04:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
I agree with Josh on this one and I have screwed up enough to have learned it the hard way. Like Hobe said, any dog can be made to hunt close with a shock collar, but you may not like what you got left.

If they are trained from the pup to hunt closer you don't need a shock collar. You are right though you can screw up a dog teaching it to do anything.

Posted by on 12-17-2009 04:23 PM:

Well I'm always up for another learning experience. Enlighted me on how you teach your pups to hunt close.

Posted by Will Walker on 12-17-2009 04:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Well I'm always up for another learning experience. Enlighted me on how you teach your pups to hunt close.

go get you a feist!

Posted by Okie Dawg on 12-17-2009 04:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Well I'm always up for another learning experience. Enlighted me on how you teach your pups to hunt close.

To be very basic start them young and by themselves so they will stay close (forming the habbit) then when they start getting to deep to fast call them back. They will learn to hunt in a tighter space.
I learned a long time ago just becouse I have done a lot of differant things with differant types of dog doesn't meen if I don't know how it can't be done. I learned if I don't know how I need to buy books, talk to professional trainers in that field and do as much research as I can on it.
I am not a professional anything. I guess that is why I am not to proud to go ask peoples for there advise and techneques on new methods.

Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 12-17-2009 04:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by josh
You can teach a dog to do about anything, but most of the time you will have unintended consequences that are far worse than the original problem...JMO

Totally!!! dogs are like women. It is much easier to get rid of the one you have that has undesirable characteristics and find another with what you are looking for than to change or alter the one you have to meet what you want out of it.

There sure isn't a shortage of dogs out there, why try to alter ones god given genetics?? Talk about frustrating. Good luck though, your dogs, your time.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 12-17-2009 05:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Briar
Totally!!! dogs are like women. It is much easier to get rid of the one you have that has undesirable characteristics and find another with what you are looking for than to change or alter the one you have to meet what you want out of it.

There sure isn't a shortage of dogs out there, why try to alter ones god given genetics?? Talk about frustrating. Good luck though, your dogs, your time.

Dogs aren't like women. You can't raise a woman they way you want her. If you start with a pup it is a blank sheat of paper. If you need an eraser it is becouse of the artest mistake not the paper.
I have learned with ever dog I have ever trained things I could do differant to keep future training problems from exesting. Doing things right the first time threw is the key to not haveing problems down the road. For example ensouraging a pup to tree on a squirel or cat. Then gripeing down the road becouse they do it when hunting for coon.

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