UKC Forums - Split Tree ?

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-- Split Tree ? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=305108)

Posted by T Felderman on 10-10-2009 07:51 AM:

Split Tree ?

Four dog cast.
Dog A declared treed. With 3:30 gone on the five dog B is then declared treed. When the 5 is up we head into the tree. It is determined that A and B are 30 yards apart. Handler of C then trees in with B.

Was B's tree up on the orginal 5 minutes?

I didnt know. I though in order to score a tree you have to have atleast one of the following to happed. All dogs declared treed or dog holds it's tree for 5 minutes. Never seen anything like it.

Posted by elvis on 10-10-2009 08:52 AM:

IMO
Tuff break for dog C.
Tree is closed.

Posted by larrypoe on 10-10-2009 09:05 AM:

I agree with Elvis. If you didnt know the dogs were split, and wasnt running a seperate time on it, dog c is sol.

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Posted by edf61 on 10-10-2009 09:54 AM:

Same here! D.O.A.

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Posted by T Felderman on 10-10-2009 01:16 PM:

Is this in the advisor? I couldnt find nothing on the back of the score card.

Glad i was spectating

Posted by Dealer on 10-10-2009 01:22 PM:

Todd,

Nothing on the back of the scorecard other than the tree is closed after 5, the only way that dog C can tree in there is if you started a 2nd time on the split tree and put dog B down for 125. I have seen it happen quite a bit. Otherwise the judge would have to carry 4 stopwatches and try to remember which one he had on which dog, write down scores, and listen and call his dog. I have a hard enough time just calling my dog!!!!! LOL!!!

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Posted by mattbsu on 10-10-2009 02:28 PM:

tree

Would it matter when you noticed the split tree? If you noticed it before the other dog was treed, then i believe time should have started once you notice the split? I dont competition hunt..just what i think should be called.

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Posted by Todd Miller on 10-10-2009 02:54 PM:

Have to call split, from Dog A and start Dog B's time from when he was treed. Dog C didn't make the cut.

Posted by Bill(Chew) on 10-10-2009 03:08 PM:

Was dog C declared treed before the five would have been over on dog B's? How soon after the five was up on dog a's tree was the split determined? Dog C's points hinge on this.

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Posted by josh on 10-10-2009 03:24 PM:

I dont understand how you guys that want to split tree everything deal with it when you find out they were never split to begin with?

You NEVER split unless its obvious, creates a big problem if you do IMO.

Posted by Todd Miller on 10-10-2009 03:27 PM:

josh can you re-write that so we can understand it.

Posted by josh on 10-10-2009 03:30 PM:

Todd, There are plenty of times when a guy thinks the dogs may be split...but you cant put them on the card that way unless your sure.

If you split them on the card and it turns out you are wrong someone needs to take -125 and probably wont be very happy about it.

Hope that is clear enough for you.

Posted by Todd Miller on 10-10-2009 03:33 PM:

Josh I think I know what your saying. I want to split for the extra points if I can, if its not an obvious split then I would not call it until we got into tree's. I am not sure what problems it would cause, if they weren't split then you might have to the the split tree to reflect the correct scoring.

Posted by josh on 10-10-2009 03:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Miller
might have to erase a tree score and change it.

You cant do that Todd, according to the rules anyway....

Posted by Todd Miller on 10-10-2009 03:37 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by josh
You cant do that Todd, according to the rules anyway.... [/QUOTE

Your correct somehow you have to reflect it erase would not be correct. I went back and reworded it. Thanks for pointing that out. Line through it.

Posted by Todd Miller on 10-10-2009 03:42 PM:

if you were determined to say they were split and they weren't, I would say someone should or be willing to take minus. I have had handlers say those dog's are split and it wasn't really obvious, so I asked to wait until we could determine.

Posted by cbcoonskinner on 10-10-2009 04:05 PM:

if dog B was treed at 3:30 on dog A's tree that left a minute and a half before tree closes , tree closes at the five, nobody say how long it took to walk to the tree? once there dogs A and B were split, assuming directly behind dog A's tree. When I judge I keep track of dogs time that has been treed( more than once i have walked into trees and had dogs split directly back from 10 to 50 feet) Once I see dogs are split i call out the time (if any left on dog B) So if dog C was there I would know if Dog B's tree was closed or open then could score tree accordingly with what ever dogs are there.

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Posted by gfults on 10-12-2009 11:12 PM:

When dog A was treed the judge shouldve started the 5 on his watch. When dog B was treed the judge shouldve looked at his watch and informed the cast how much time had elapsed on the 5 when dog B was treed in case dogs end up being split. When it was determined the dogs were split, the judge shouldve let the cast know how much time was left on dog Bs 5 in case the handler of dog C wants to tree his dog.
Example: All dogs struck. Dog A treed. 3 min into the 5 dog B is treed. The 5 is up and the cast starts toward tree. (leaving his watch running). 2 min after the 5 is expired its realized dog B is split. That leaves 1 min on dog Bs tree and for the handler of dog C to tree his dog.

Posted by T Felderman on 10-13-2009 12:50 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by gfults
When dog A was treed the judge shouldve started the 5 on his watch. When dog B was treed the judge shouldve looked at his watch and informed the cast how much time had elapsed on the 5 when dog B was treed in case dogs end up being split. When it was determined the dogs were split, the judge shouldve let the cast know how much time was left on dog Bs 5 in case the handler of dog C wants to tree his dog.
Example: All dogs struck. Dog A treed. 3 min into the 5 dog B is treed. The 5 is up and the cast starts toward tree. (leaving his watch running). 2 min after the 5 is expired its realized dog B is split. That leaves 1 min on dog Bs tree and for the handler of dog C to tree his dog.

That's what I thought and almost to a T what happened.

Posted by LostHeritageKennel on 10-13-2009 05:20 AM:

Tough break for dog C. Tree him in for 125 and minus him. That's all you can do.

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Posted by treemydog32 on 10-13-2009 05:37 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by gfults
When dog A was treed the judge shouldve started the 5 on his watch. When dog B was treed the judge shouldve looked at his watch and informed the cast how much time had elapsed on the 5 when dog B was treed in case dogs end up being split. When it was determined the dogs were split, the judge shouldve let the cast know how much time was left on dog Bs 5 in case the handler of dog C wants to tree his dog.
Example: All dogs struck. Dog A treed. 3 min into the 5 dog B is treed. The 5 is up and the cast starts toward tree. (leaving his watch running). 2 min after the 5 is expired its realized dog B is split. That leaves 1 min on dog Bs tree and for the handler of dog C to tree his dog.

Very well put and the way it should have been done...But things happen and its a tough break for dog C...

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Posted by edf61 on 10-13-2009 06:49 AM:

How long after the five did you arrive at the tree to notice this so called split? could be your answer right there!!!!!

Posted by gfults on 10-13-2009 07:00 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by LostHeritageKennel
Tough break for dog C. Tree him in for 125 and minus him. That's all you can do.

No, it could also be done the CORRECT way! Acompetent judge wouldve noted a seperate 5 for dog B. If dogs were OBVIOUSLY split a seperate 5 would run. Therefore it should also be run in the above scenario in case you end up finding A and B split. Otherwise its dog C getting screwed, not just a tough break!

Posted by gfults on 10-13-2009 07:01 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by gfults
When dog A was treed the judge shouldve started the 5 on his watch. When dog B was treed the judge shouldve looked at his watch and informed the cast how much time had elapsed on the 5 when dog B was treed in case dogs end up being split. When it was determined the dogs were split, the judge shouldve let the cast know how much time was left on dog Bs 5 in case the handler of dog C wants to tree his dog.
Example: All dogs struck. Dog A treed. 3 min into the 5 dog B is treed. The 5 is up and the cast starts toward tree. (leaving his watch running). 2 min after the 5 is expired its realized dog B is split. That leaves 1 min on dog Bs tree and for the handler of dog C to tree his dog.

Posted by LostHeritageKennel on 10-13-2009 08:12 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by gfults
No, it could also be done the CORRECT way! Acompetent judge wouldve noted a seperate 5 for dog B. If dogs were OBVIOUSLY split a seperate 5 would run. Therefore it should also be run in the above scenario in case you end up finding A and B split. Otherwise its dog C getting screwed, not just a tough break!

But it was not obvious at the time the dog B was treed in. Or the judge would have immediately given Dog B 125 and made it known to the cast that he was doing so. Nobody would have even thought to start another five minutes, because it wasn't obvious until they got into or close to the tree. It was not determined that they were split until after the first 5 was up, how much after? That we do not know. If they figured it out before the other 5 would have been up, then tree him for 75, if not, tree him for 125 and minus his tree points and if a coon is seen in Dog B's tree, then minus his strike as well. Was just going off the information that was given. I agree that what you said should have been done. But since they weren't obviously split when Dog B treed in, then it changes things.

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