UKC Forums - Rule 7 non working dog. opinions please.

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Posted by elvis on 01-23-2010 07:53 PM:

Rule 7 non working dog. opinions please.

rule7
If dog is not working as part of cast and is holding first strike or second strike etc, all strike points will be open to other dogs after coons have been treed in 2 seperate trees, or 1 hr of hunting time has elapsed.

this rule, imo, needed to be changed when the leashlock option was implemented. The way it is now, dogs can be struck in over dogs that dont meet the requirements of a nonworking dog.
I dont believe this rule ever intended for a dog to be struck in over another dog unless all dogs trailing were considered non working dogs.

If you agree, I would like to know what you think of just adding another sentence to rule 7 like: no dog shall be struck in over a dog that is not considered a non working dog as outlined in rule 7.

Or, should we just do away with rule 7 completely?

Or, should we do away with next available and always strike back in for 25?

OPINIONS WANTED.

Posted by cj. on 01-23-2010 07:54 PM:

always strike back in for 25

I would just plain be more simple

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810-422-3352

Posted by longshot on 01-23-2010 08:10 PM:

I brought it up a few months ago and didn't seen to get much responce and the little I did get didn't agree with me. lol (nothing new there lol )

Anyway , I believe in keeping it simple... I'd do away with rule 7 and ALWAYS strike in for next available position. That keeps it simple for a judge to score in all circumstances.

I know some people will say its not fair for a dog to carry first strike all night , but the way I look at it is ,,, if he is carrying strike and not getting treed , he ain't hurting me if we're treeing coons all around him and scoreing them.

I'd bet most judges don't even know how to apply rule 7 in the correct manner anyway. Plus the way it is written up now , the first dog that trees a coon is punished compared to the second dog that trees a coon. It is screwed up in my opinion and badly needs changed and simplified.

The circumstances are rare that cause rule 7 to be used anyway , so I say trash it. I only saw it happen two times all last summer in hunts and both times it was unfair to the dog that treed first. That needs fixed IMO.

__________________
Mark Reavis
Southwest Missouri
Dual Grand Champion Super Sambo

Posted by Dan Dogs on 01-23-2010 08:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by cj.
always strike back in for 25

I would just plain be more simple

i agree. i have a simple mind..but i think the non working dog should take minus on strike points after the third coon seen.

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Posted by longshot on 01-23-2010 08:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by cj.
always strike back in for 25

I would just plain be more simple

I don't like the 25 thing... Why not just strike in for next available PERIOD ??? Lets say the non working dog is carrying 100 strike all night... Why wouldn't you want to have more points available to score ? ''ie'' 75 , 50 , 25...

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Southwest Missouri
Dual Grand Champion Super Sambo

Posted by smokin-1-mo on 01-23-2010 08:21 PM:

WELL GREAT OZ WE WILL HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THIS ONE.....LOL

Posted by Dan Dogs on 01-23-2010 08:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by longshot
I don't like the 25 thing... Why not just strike in for next available PERIOD ??? Lets say the non working dog is carrying 100 strike all night... Why wouldn't you want to have more points available to score ? ''ie'' 75 , 50 , 25...

next available is fine, as long as you don't strike over another working dog..thats what needs to be changed.

Posted by longshot on 01-23-2010 08:28 PM:

Re: Rule 7 non working dog. opinions please.

quote:
Originally posted by elvis
If you agree, I would like to know what you think of just adding another sentence to rule 7 like: no dog shall be struck in over a dog that is not considered a non working dog as outlined in rule 7.
OPINIONS WANTED.

That is probably the most ''fair'' option , BUT it requires alot more understanding and heads-up on the part of the judge in declaring a non working dog at the right time.... I think to many mistakes and arguements would be made...

Thats why I say just make it simple and strike for next available everytime you re-cast.

__________________
Mark Reavis
Southwest Missouri
Dual Grand Champion Super Sambo

Posted by longshot on 01-23-2010 08:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Dogs
next available is fine, as long as you don't strike over another working dog..thats what needs to be changed.

If you always strike in for next available , you never would strike in over any dog. BUT rule 7 would have to go BYE BYE for that to happen and thats what I would reccomend.

__________________
Mark Reavis
Southwest Missouri
Dual Grand Champion Super Sambo

Posted by elvis on 01-23-2010 08:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by longshot
If you always strike in for next available , you never would strike in over any dog. BUT rule 7 would have to go BYE BYE for that to happen and thats what I would reccomend.

also keep in mind that just as easy as not, the non working dog can be holding 50 or 25.

Posted by cj. on 01-23-2010 08:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by longshot
I don't like the 25 thing... Why not just strike in for next available PERIOD ??? Lets say the non working dog is carrying 100 strike all night... Why wouldn't you want to have more points available to score ? ''ie'' 75 , 50 , 25...

If a dog is carrying 100 all night.... even if theres been multiple drops, that dog is not scoring any coon, and should probably be back in the truck by now.

I'm fine with next available, or 25, I just don't really care for that non-working dog rule. Most people don't understand it, and it causes problems.

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Joey Sexton
810-422-3352

Posted by longshot on 01-23-2010 08:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by elvis
also keep in mind that just as easy as not, the non working dog can be holding 50 or 25.

Thats true and in that case it would be 25. Most cast never experiance the non working dog rule on a hunt , but it does happen with pressure split tree dogs and thick coons.

What is your preferance Elvis?

__________________
Mark Reavis
Southwest Missouri
Dual Grand Champion Super Sambo

Posted by longshot on 01-23-2010 08:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by cj.
I'm fine with next available, or 25, I just don't really care for that non-working dog rule. Most people don't understand it, and it causes problems.

I totally agree with this.

__________________
Mark Reavis
Southwest Missouri
Dual Grand Champion Super Sambo

Posted by Dogwhisper on 01-23-2010 08:49 PM:

The leash lock option implemented now is just that.... an option to be exercised at the handlers descrection.
I personally like going back in for 100 strike pts. on the non-working dog(s) or others dog(s) trailing after the two coons have been scored or 1 hr. hunt time has expired which ever occurs first.The way I understand the leashlock option it starts every time a dog(s) are scored and there are trailers out.I like the reset of the strike pts for the hustling dog(s) after the requirements have been meet to do so..

"If you agree, I would like to know what you think of just adding another sentence to rule 7 like: no dog shall be struck in over a dog that is not considered a non working dog as outlined in rule 7."

In this (e.g.) Marv. that dog had the opportunity to get treed w/ the dog(s) that have been scored on two trees or 1 hr.The dog(s) choose not to for whatever reason.

If two coons have been scored or 1 hr has elapsed how do you justify that the other dog(s) are not working as part of the cast that the dog(s) have been scored on?
I don't thing it needs fixin. It ain't broke.IMO

Posted by longshot on 01-23-2010 08:56 PM:

Dogwhisper,,, the problem arises when the dog that treed first gets cut back for next available , BUT the second dog that trees get cut back for 100 under the current rule... That is punishing the dog that trees the first coon ..... Thats not rewarding the '' hustling'' dog..

__________________
Mark Reavis
Southwest Missouri
Dual Grand Champion Super Sambo

Posted by elvis on 01-23-2010 08:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by longshot
Thats true and in that case it would be 25. Most cast never experiance the non working dog rule on a hunt , but it does happen with pressure split tree dogs and thick coons.

What is your preferance Elvis?

I really dont care other than I dont like the way it is now.
Up untill this past world hunt I thought you couldnt strike in over a working dog, and had always judged it as such. I just thought it couldnt be that we had a rule that allowed it, but I was wrong. It was one of those deals where they changed one rule (option to recast) without taking into consideration how it would effect another rule.(rule 7)
Before that change it rarely if ever came up because you had to lead your dogs to any others that were treed.

Posted by longshot on 01-23-2010 09:02 PM:

Thats exactly how I feel about it to Elvis.

__________________
Mark Reavis
Southwest Missouri
Dual Grand Champion Super Sambo

Posted by Dogwhisper on 01-23-2010 09:09 PM:

Exercise your leash lock option @ that point in the game.Use this new rule to your advantage you don't have to turn loose knowing that all your going to get is next available on strike ......Walk to the second tree w/dog in hand score the second tree then exercise your option @ that second tree to turn loose,that would be a possible100 strike pts. (two coon).............

Posted by elvis on 01-23-2010 09:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dogwhisper

I don't thing it needs fixin. It ain't broke.IMO

George
We turn 4 dogs loose, they all strike.
yours gets treed first, mine split trees from yours.
we go score your coon. you recast and strike back in for 25.
we score my coon,recast, and now mine goes out and strikes with your dog for 100.
if that aint broke i dont know what is.

Posted by Dogwhisper on 01-23-2010 09:12 PM:

I will, exercise my option Marv.

Posted by elvis on 01-23-2010 09:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dogwhisper
Exercise your leash lock option @ that point in the game.Use this new rule to your advantage you don't have to turn loose knowing that all your going to get is next available on strike ......Walk to the second tree w/dog in hand score the second tree then exercise your option @ that second tree to turn loose,that would be a possible100 strike pts. (two coon).............

so now that we finally have an option to recast we want to penalize a dog for it? i thought we were headed in the other direction.

Posted by Dogwhisper on 01-23-2010 09:13 PM:

I'm reading that everyone assumes you have to turn loose......

Posted by longshot on 01-23-2010 09:15 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dogwhisper
Exercise your leash lock option @ that point in the game.Use this new rule to your advantage you don't have to turn loose knowing that all your going to get is next available on strike ......Walk to the second tree w/dog in hand score the second tree then exercise your option @ that second tree to turn loose,that would be a possible100 strike pts. (two coon).............

If you do that , now your down another 150+ becasue you didn't get anything for holding onto your dog. I don't see how that could be to anyones advantage , but I give you credit for thinking far ahead (probably to far ahead) .. lol

__________________
Mark Reavis
Southwest Missouri
Dual Grand Champion Super Sambo

Posted by Dogwhisper on 01-23-2010 09:15 PM:

You need to know when to play the option card....when it will benefit the dog your handling.

Posted by Dogwhisper on 01-23-2010 09:18 PM:

So what if I'm down 150 pts. Game ain't over yet. And I pack a capable dog.

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