UKC Forums - Dogs Trailing out of Hearing ?

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Posted by T Felderman on 09-29-2009 05:00 PM:

Dogs Trailing out of Hearing ?

Windy night, 3 dog cast.
Dog A trees to the North, dogs BC are trailing to the east and south. After scoring dog A's tree we walk back to where we last heard the other 2 dogs. Obviously dogs B and C are out of hearing because of the wind. What should be done, start the 8? Call timeout immediately because the judge cant judge the dogs since they are all in opposite directions? Other?

Posted by SLICK50 on 09-29-2009 05:13 PM:

Well if i were the judge I would ask the 2 handlers with the dogs still out what they wanted to do.

1) If they both agree to call time-out and there dog ends up getting treed right in front of them there going to be very mad.

2) If the dogs are in fact way out of hearing and they don't call time-out then there talking strike minus and possibly scratched if the hour catches them.

So it's kinda luck to pick which i would vote to do.

Posted by on 09-29-2009 05:56 PM:

Start the 8. If the 8 catches, call time and round up dogs.

Posted by thickcoon on 09-29-2009 06:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Start the 8. If the 8 catches, call time and round up dogs.

how can you start the 8? Rule says timeout should of been called when dogs are gong out of hearing in opposite directions.

Posted by Casey_Lee on 09-29-2009 06:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by thickcoon
how can you start the 8? Rule says timeout should of been called when dogs are gong out of hearing in opposite directions.

because dog A was treed

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Posted by on 09-29-2009 06:09 PM:

You are refering to 8(g). That rule does not apply in this situation. 8(g) covers a situation where dogs simply trail out of hearuing in differnt directions. The situation we have here is different because they were scoring a tree and after scoring the tree, they can't hear the dogs. That may or may not be because the dogs trailed out of hearing, you have no way of knowing for sure. When you score a tree, you start the 8 and recast when the 8 is broke or minus the dogs if the 8 catches. That is the rule that covers this particular situation.

Posted by thickcoon on 09-29-2009 06:15 PM:

I figured that if you had dogs going out of hearing the opposte way you are walking to the dog treed how are you supposed to hear them? dont hardly seem right. guess thats a risk you take hunting windy night

Posted by T Felderman on 10-01-2009 02:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
You are refering to 8(g). That rule does not apply in this situation. 8(g) covers a situation where dogs simply trail out of hearuing in differnt directions. The situation we have here is different because they were scoring a tree and after scoring the tree, they can't hear the dogs. That may or may not be because the dogs trailed out of hearing, you have no way of knowing for sure. When you score a tree, you start the 8 and recast when the 8 is broke or minus the dogs if the 8 catches. That is the rule that covers this particular situation.

I didn't know that. I figured you walked back to where you last heard them and either called timeout right away or start the 8 and listen. Thought it was the handlers option. Like I said it was windy and we had a good idea they would be out of hearing in different directions when we got back.

Posted by jonathan w. on 10-01-2009 02:47 PM:

It is the handler's option. You always start the 8. If the 8 catches them, then they have the option.

Posted by SLICK50 on 10-01-2009 02:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jonathan w.
It is the handler's option. You always start the 8. If the 8 catches them, then they have the option.

So youre telling me once the 8 catches me i can say well i want to call timeout now?

Yes it is the handlers option BUT the situation has to be voted on immedietley. Not once the 8 catches them!!!

Posted by on 10-01-2009 03:40 PM:

Jon, you are confusing PKC rtules. There is no option to call timeout in this situation in UKC. The rule is very clear. You run the 8, if the 8 catches, you minus and then you could call timeout. You can never call timeout for the purpose of avoiding minus points. Ask Allen.

Posted by SLICK50 on 10-01-2009 03:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Jon, you are confusing PKC rtules. There is no option to call timeout in this situation in UKC. The rule is very clear. You run the 8, if the 8 catches, you minus and then you could call timeout. You can never call timeout for the purpose of avoiding minus points. Ask Allen.

JiM if you walk 400 yards the complete opposite way to go to a dog that's treed then this rule comes into effect.

(g) Time out will be called when dog(s) are trailing and out of hearing distance in different directions.

If someone wanted to minus me in this situation i would be putting a question on the card and i will win the question.

Posted by Roger Wilson on 10-01-2009 03:58 PM:

So what do you do when all dogs strike and just trail away out of hearing right off the bat? Start the 8 and if it catches them you can call time out and round them up?

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Posted by on 10-01-2009 04:02 PM:

You can win anything in frot of the MOH but you are losing that one when the Formal Complaint gets to UKC because 8(g) is not the rule that applies in this situation. This question involved scoring a tree and THEN starting the 8. Rule 8(g) applies to dogs that are trailing in opposit directions and go out of hearing, no tree scoring involved. As soon as you involve the scoring of a tree, 8(g) no longer applies.

Posted by SLICK50 on 10-01-2009 04:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Roger Wilson
So what do you do when all dogs strike and just trail away out of hearing right off the bat? Start the 8 and if it catches them you can call time out and round them up?

Well if they were all trailing farther and farther you do youre best to keep up with them. Pretty simple.

Now if dog a and d go hard left handed and dog b and c go hard right then obviousley this isn't fair to anyone so you just call time-out and you all get an hour to get youre dog abd meet back up with the cast.

Posted by GA DAWG on 10-01-2009 04:05 PM:

I would of cut dog A...Then what you gonna do about B an C??? I dont have to hear them to cut loose..I would of cut an then started the 8 on em and gave them the MINUS!

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Posted by SLICK50 on 10-01-2009 04:09 PM:

JiM i guarantee you 8g applies at any point in the cast!!! The only person that would be affected is the treed dog. So that's why this rule states

(h) Dog(s) declared treed, before time out is called, will be scored then immedietley after the scoring of the tree time-out will be called. It only fair to the handlers of the other dogs that you just walked way the other way from.

Posted by SLICK50 on 10-01-2009 04:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
I would of cut dog A...Then what you gonna do about B an C??? I dont have to hear them to cut loose..I would of cut an then started the 8 on em and gave them the MINUS!

Of course you have to hear them in order to re-cast youre dog if they are struck in!!! Unbelievable

Posted by on 10-01-2009 04:18 PM:

Slick, you must have a different UKC rulebook than the one I have. 8(h) just says dogs treed before time is called will be scored. There is nothing about "then immediately after scoring the tree time-out will be called". Where'd yah get that part? And how can you call timeout if timeout has already been called?

Posted by SLICK50 on 10-01-2009 04:26 PM:

JiM i didn't mean to add that on to it. i was just stating that immedietley after the tree was scored time-out is in effect. But like i said no way someone would minus me if i was b or c. An in-experienced handler would allow this maybe. The rule is there for a reason and it's actually one that should make sense to everyone. I love how everyday we have a new rule question or rule oppinion thread. Peoople just read the rules it aint hard!! Instead of relying on others to teach them to us read them for yourself.

Posted by Casey_Lee on 10-01-2009 04:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by SLICK50
JiM i guarantee you 8g applies at any point in the cast!!! The only person that would be affected is the treed dog. So that's why this rule states

(h) Dog(s) declared treed, before time out is called, will be scored then immedietley after the scoring of the tree time-out will be called. It only fair to the handlers of the other dogs that you just walked way the other way from.

If my dogs is trailing and we walk 400 yards to go score a tree in the opposite direction. I don't want to call time out. I want to go back to where we last heard them, and start the 8 because chances are by the time you have walked all that distance my dog will already be tree.

You can't apply that rule either because of rule 8 Note

NOTE: IF time out is called then time is out, and if dog should tree, it would not count except in accordance with 6(k). NO TIME IS TO BE CALLED OUT TO SEARCH A TREE OR WHEN DOGS ARE TIED TO BE LED AWAY FROM A TREE. (THIS IS A PART OF THE HUNT, UNLESS MOVING TO NEW AREA IN ACCORDANCE WITH 8(c).)

If you call time out and go score that tree you have blatently broke this rule for scoring the tree during time out. Now you are going to say that you would call time in to search the tree. You can't do that because of rule.

6 (j) For delaying completion of cast for one hour after time out is called in accordance with Rule 8.

You have 1 hour to catch the dogs and get to the designated area. That means I have 1 hour to catch my dog and meet you at the tree correct? You can't call time out to walk to a tree and call time in to score the tree just to turn around and call time out again. When you call time out you go catch the dogs. Unless it affects rule

8 (i) Time out may be called to go from one split tree to another if all dogs are declared treed and more than 15 minutes is required to travel between trees. If dog leaves tree and goes back on track, time in continues.

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Mantachie, MS

Posted by SLICK50 on 10-01-2009 04:42 PM:

Casey that all made my head hurt. Dog a was treed before they would make the decision to call time-out so the rule 8 note is useless.

(g) Time out will be called when dog(s) are trailing and out of hearing distance in different directions.

How much easier does it need to read ???????????????? Notice that it states dog(s) which in this case b and c are dogs. Case closed.

Posted by Brett Gragg on 10-01-2009 04:47 PM:

We live in the mountains and have dogs go out of Herring all the time you have to have some com an sense when using the rules in the mountains because these rules were made for flat ground

Posted by Casey_Lee on 10-01-2009 04:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by SLICK50
Casey that all made my head hurt. Dog a was treed before they would make the decision to call time-out so the rule 8 note is useless.

(g) Time out will be called when dog(s) are trailing and out of hearing distance in different directions.

How much easier does it need to read ???????????????? Notice that it states dog(s) which in this case b and c are dogs. Case closed.

Think about what you are saying.....You are saying that you would call time out, and walk to the tree. Call time in and score the tree. Turn right back around and call time out to see where the other dogs are. Say you get caught up with them. Would you call time in to recast the dog that was treed to the dogs still on trail?

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Casey L Clayton
(662) 523-0375
Mantachie, MS

Posted by HOBO on 10-01-2009 04:52 PM:

After you score dog a's tree you walk back to where you last heard them and start the 8.

I'm guessing that on a windy night most would agree to walking the direction that you heard the dogs going while the 8 was running though.

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