UKC Forums - Dogs in danger - call timeout

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-- Dogs in danger - call timeout - Now What? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=497654)

Posted by WEBBER on 04-18-2012 02:54 PM:

Dogs in danger - call timeout - Now What?

3 dog cast. All dogs struck. Dog A declared treed deep.
Cast on the way to score tree. 5 minutes up, tree is closed.
Cast hears B&C still out trailing toward/near busy highway. Cast agrees to call timeout due to dog(s) in danger.

When to start the 1 hour delay of cast? Immediately after timeout is called or after tree is scored. The "Advisor - page 64" states that all handlers must score tree first then handle dogs B&C. Is this scenario an exception to the rules "Advisor"?? or Do B&C get a bad break and need to withdraw in order to handle?

A follow up question to this scenario....
Is hunt time used to score A's tree after timeout has been called. Meaning - do you call time back in and use hunt time to score tree, like you would on a split tree situation where they are more than 15 minutes apart.

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Posted by JiM on 04-18-2012 04:32 PM:

Trees are always scored if the dog is treed while the clock is running. There is no exception to that in the rule book. They get called treed, they get scored.

On starting the 1 hour clock, I'm not positive about the rule but I know I'm not running the clock on a dog while that dogs handler is required to score a tree. I would start the time as soon as the tree is scored.

And I also run the hunt time while shining the tree. This is based on rule 8(i).

This question doesn't completely make sense when you think about it. Time supposedly was called because two of the dogs were headed for the hiway while the 3rd was treed. They call time to protect the dogs. So would they not have those dogs gathered before scoring the tree? Then why run the hour? on the other hand, if they are scoring the tree before gathering those two dogs, then the must have not been in that much danger to begin with in which case timeout should not have even been called.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 04-18-2012 05:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Trees are always scored if the dog is treed while the clock is running. There is no exception to that in the rule book. They get called treed, they get scored.

On starting the 1 hour clock, I'm not positive about the rule but I know I'm not running the clock on a dog while that dogs handler is required to score a tree. I would start the time as soon as the tree is scored.

And I also run the hunt time while shining the tree. This is based on rule 8(i).

This question doesn't completely make sense when you think about it. Time supposedly was called because two of the dogs were headed for the hiway while the 3rd was treed. They call time to protect the dogs. So would they not have those dogs gathered before scoring the tree? Then why run the hour? on the other hand, if they are scoring the tree before gathering those two dogs, then the must have not been in that much danger to begin with in which case timeout should not have even been called.

Yep I agree Jim. That is the way it sould go.
Billy the object at the point when dogs are in danger is to save the dogs.

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Posted by WEBBER on 04-18-2012 05:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
This question doesn't completely make sense when you think about it. Time supposedly was called because two of the dogs were headed for the hiway while the 3rd was treed. They call time to protect the dogs. So would they not have those dogs gathered before scoring the tree?

If I was handler of dog B or C, I would go get my dog first, BUT by the advisor, I would also be scratched for doing so. The handlers are required to score the tree first and then start the 1 hour. Do you agree?

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 04-18-2012 05:41 PM:

Yes seems pretty logical to me.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 04-18-2012 05:41 PM:

I would say call time out and everyone go handle there dogs. Then meet back at the tree to score it.

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 04-18-2012 05:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
I would say call time out and everyone go handle there dogs. Then meet back at the tree to score it.

That could take who knows how long. That is only punishing the dog that got treed.

Posted by GA DAWG on 04-18-2012 06:12 PM:

Mines more important than a little yellow slip. Call time or don't. Mines trailing toward a big rd. Im going to get it.

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Posted by josh on 04-18-2012 06:27 PM:

If dogs are getting that close to a busy road, odds are slim your gonna get them caught before they get across the road or get treed anyway...

How often do you catch your dog off a track?

Someone told me once "never walk to a running dog".... IMO that is good advice.

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Posted by truly on 04-18-2012 06:27 PM:

No matter what the exact ruling is, Dog A may get a bum deal on this. Handlers of B and C have an obligation to save/protect their dog. Scratch or just start the hour, either way, these guys are leaving to get their dogs. Dog A needs a second person to score his tree. In a perfect world handlers come back after catching their dogs up and score. In reality, handlers of dog B and C may feel like they got set up, turned loose in a bad spot. We all know that there are handler/guides who will take a cast and cut them away from a feeder knowing that their dog will circle back to it.
So lets add another question- lets just say that handlers of dog B and C leave and never come back. Maybe even for a legit reason- lets say it took two hours to catch dogs, or a dog was injured on the shoulder of road and needed immediate vet care. How does handler A, assuming he is the judge handle this? Obviously at some point he needs to go back to MOH and get a judge. When? After 1 hour? I think exactly when you start the hour in this case is very important. I would start it at the point when time was called, let handlers B and C go get their dogs, and if they made it back on time score with them. If after the hour, or if they do not come back, at the hour, delete the points and go get a judge.

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 04-18-2012 10:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
That could take who knows how long. That is only punishing the dog that got treed.

what does 8g say when dogs or trailing out of hearing?
time out WILL be called no differnce

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 04-19-2012 03:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
That could take who knows how long. That is only punishing the dog that got treed.

How do you figure? Dog a gets handled and tied back the other two gets caught and handled. Then you go score the tree. You don't call time in till you get back to the tree.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 04-19-2012 03:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by josh
If dogs are getting that close to a busy road, odds are slim your gonna get them caught before they get across the road or get treed anyway...

How often do you catch your dog off a track?

Someone told me once "never walk to a running dog".... IMO that is good advice.

You call them in or if you can't you drive around.

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 04-19-2012 03:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
How do you figure? Dog a gets handled and tied back the other two gets caught and handled. Then you go score the tree. You don't call time in till you get back to the tree.

Well you may be thrilled with your dog treeing its guts out for an hour or who knows how long. I'm not. I want my dog scored the way the rules say to do it.

Posted by JSTARR on 04-19-2012 03:30 PM:

btt

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 04-19-2012 04:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
Well you may be thrilled with your dog treeing its guts out for an hour or who knows how long. I'm not. I want my dog scored the way the rules say to do it.

Well I am not thrilled to leave my dog treeing for an hour but I would do it to keep another mans dog from getting hit by a car. But then that is just me. I try to be desant to other people.
If you go by the rules. You can call time out and get the dogs out of danger.
If it is hot and to keep your dog from over heating just mark the tree and move your dog back further. Of course the coon may come down and it will be a tough break but then people will be happy to go hunt with you rather than to want to shoot themselves when they see who they got drawn out with.

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 04-19-2012 04:34 PM:

Don't blame me for dogs getting on the road! Blame the guide or blame your dog for going by coon!

Posted by Okie Dawg on 04-19-2012 04:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
Don't blame me for dogs getting on the road! Blame the guide or blame your dog for going by coon!

Are you around 13 years old?

Posted by GA DAWG on 04-19-2012 05:19 PM:

If mine want stay treed 1 hour and be treeing as hard as it was when it first treed. Id knock it in the head.

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Posted by RBB-SCOTT on 04-19-2012 05:45 PM:

my two cents

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JiM
[B]Trees are always scored if the dog is treed while the clock is running. There is no exception to that in the rule book. They get called treed, they get scored.

First off let me say the Advisor covers this very scenario on pg 64 referenced earlier. The Advisor says clearly that the dog that was declared treed must be scored and then begin the 1 hour to go and handle the other dogs. The Advisor also mentions the fact that the dog declared treed is eligible for scoring even though time out was called because the dog was declared treed prior to time out being called.

Here's my question/comment..
Rule 5 points will be deleted (d)if judge has to call time out in accordance with Rule 8.
Rule 8 Time Out (a)when dogs are getting on highway, trail onto posted land or trail into a place where there is danger to dogs or hunters.

Seems like to me the strike & tree points for Dog A in this scenario (and the one in the Advisor) should be deleted. Right? Is there another rule that overides this thinking?

Posted by GA DAWG on 04-19-2012 05:48 PM:

If we withdraw. Your tree ain't getting scored. Might as well round yours up to.

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 04-19-2012 05:52 PM:

Here's the question you have to ask yourself. Is my ($$$$$$$) dog worth getting killed over a 15 or 20 dollar hunt? Each and everytime you turn your dog loose you risk it getting on a road.

That's the spirit! Well mine got by a road and even though yours is in there treed like a dog is supposed to heck with your tree! I mean what did we think we entered when we signed up a nite hunt? LOL

Posted by jackbob42 on 04-19-2012 05:56 PM:

Re: my two cents

quote:
Originally posted by RBB-SCOTT
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JiM
[B]
Seems like to me the strike & tree points for Dog A in this scenario (and the one in the Advisor) should be deleted. Right? Is there another rule that overides this thinking?

I believe the advisor trumps the rulebook.
The dogs tree "must" be scored.
In my opinion , time out is called and handlers go to their dogs. Whoever is at the tree after the hour , scores the tree.
If the other handlers choose not to go to the tree , no complaining about how it's scored.
If the other handlers don't come back then go to clubhouse , after scoring , for another judge.

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Posted by StrawberryMt on 04-19-2012 06:03 PM:

Hoosier there are special circumstances here. If I am handling b or c and we felt the dogs were in enough danger to call time,dog a is gonna get told to go tie up his dog and the hour is running to get b and c gathered and come score a. If the hour gets them then dog a is getting an unlucky break and getting deleted for the reason rbb stated. Remember the first paragraph of the rules states "honor rules". What honor is there in expecting a man to forgo his own dogs safety to score your tree? And as stated if handlers for b and c withdraw your tree aint getting scored anyway.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 04-19-2012 06:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
You guys crack me up! I love this message board! Grady I guess the coon the other dog was sitting under wasn't good enough for the other 2. I was once told never start an argument you have no hope of winning.

Your dog is by a road, you have 2 VERY SIMPLE options at this point. Help the guy score his tree or withdrawl and hope and pray you can catch your dog before it gets on or crosses the road.

Left one out. Go by the rules and call time out. I wish people like you cracked me up.

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