UKC Forums - Dog treed when judge arrives

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Posted by nextcoonhunters on 08-09-2020 11:12 PM:

Dog treed when judge arrives

Pretty sure I know the answer. But would like Trevor or Allen to say what happens in this situation.
Dog a trees, tree is dead when the judge arrives dog a and dog b are treeing for all they're worth. Judge tells both handlers they have to handle their dog. Dog b stops treeing and takes off unable to be handled. What the heck does the judge do? What points are given, does it matter how the tree is scored?

Posted by gpent24 on 08-10-2020 05:30 PM:

Minused everytime.

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Posted by benderb4 on 08-10-2020 07:23 PM:

don't agree. dog never got handled. Let it ride on what ever happens after that tree. fine line. ....If your dog is DECLARED treed. after arriving at tree judge says handle dog but before you can tie it . dog takes off down through woods it will get minus . this dog was not declared on tree and never got handled .

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 08-10-2020 08:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by benderb4
don't agree. dog never got handled. Let it ride on what ever happens after that tree. fine line. ....If your dog is DECLARED treed. after arriving at tree judge says handle dog but before you can tie it . dog takes off down through woods it will get minus . this dog was not declared on tree and never got handled .

X2 it wasn't declared trees and is not minus. Lucky break by dog taking off still carrying whatever its strike is.

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Posted by HERSHSHUNTIN on 08-10-2020 10:48 PM:

If this was a champion class or running in a rqe type event the dog would be scratched if off game was in the tree. IMO

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Posted by Tim Green on 08-11-2020 01:15 AM:

(h) Dogs treeing but not declared treed, when Judge arrives, will be assigned and minused 25 tree points on off game or slick tree. Dogs shut-out* on strike on slick tree or off game will receive minus tree points only. Refer to Rule 6 (f) for Champion Division casts and off game.

This rule doesn’t say anything about...”if you can catch your dog”. If I’m the MOH when this question comes back, the dog would be misused or scratched (if off game). In the scenario, the dog was there treeing and not declared, therefore he is scored as such. When the judge said, “handle your dog”..that is it, it was determined to be there.

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Posted by jdstanley on 08-11-2020 01:35 AM:

I think dog B would receive 25- tree points as soon as he left the tree because he was treeing when the judge arrived at a closed tree so he would receive next available position. It is up to the handler to get the dog on a lead, the fact that he wasn't handled doesn't make a difference the dog left the tree and needed to be minus. JMO

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Posted by Tim Green on 08-11-2020 01:57 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jdstanley
I think dog B would receive 25- tree points as soon as he left the tree because he was treeing when the judge arrived at a closed tree so he would receive next available position. It is up to the handler to get the dog on a lead, the fact that he wasn't handled doesn't make a difference the dog left the tree and needed to be minus. JMO

Even if he had stayed, he’d took 25- at a minimum under the new rule because he never treed him and the dog was there when the judge arrived.

What’s bad is.....I can hear the argument that happened I bet.

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Posted by jdstanley on 08-11-2020 02:49 AM:

If it was a circle tree and he stayed hypothetically I think the dogs tree points would be deleted not minus or did the just change that?

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Posted by Tim Green on 08-11-2020 03:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jdstanley
If it was a circle tree and he stayed hypothetically I think the dogs tree points would be deleted not minus or did the just change that?

Unfortunately, if it’s a circle it’ll be deleted. If you can’t plus it, you can’t minus it. This is one of those times where you almost have to be there.

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Posted by gpent24 on 08-11-2020 04:34 PM:

i missread post i thought it said dog was declared treed.

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Posted by Allen / UKC on 08-11-2020 06:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by benderb4
don't agree. dog never got handled. Let it ride on what ever happens after that tree. fine line. ....If your dog is DECLARED treed. after arriving at tree judge says handle dog but before you can tie it . dog takes off down through woods it will get minus . this dog was not declared on tree and never got handled .

benderb4 is correct. Any time a dog leaves tree, that was declared treed, receives the tree position minus. In this case, you have a dog that was not declared treed so he has no tree point to minus. He rocks on with his strike points still being live.

There's mention of awarding next available tree points. Not in this case. THE only time you award next available tree points is when the tree is scored minus or has off game (for registered).

Remember this. What needs to happen before you score any tree? A: Two things. 1(dog(s) must be handled and 2) shine time is started.

Next what if question. What if the handler influenced the dog to leave before it could be handled? A: Rule 6 scratches the handler's dog who encourages or discourages a dog.

Posted by Tim Green on 08-11-2020 06:22 PM:

Thanks Allen. I would have got that one wrong.

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Posted by T Felderman on 08-11-2020 06:25 PM:

Re: Dog treed when judge arrives

quote:
Originally posted by nextcoonhunters
But would like Trevor or Allen to say what happens in this situation.

I'd like an official ruling also. Thanks

Yep, see that now, with storms yesterday my internet pops in and out!
Glad that's the way to handle because that's the way I have been for years.

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 08-11-2020 06:50 PM:

Re: Re: Dog treed when judge arrives

quote:
Originally posted by T Felderman
I'd like an official ruling also. Thanks

Allen did answer the question. The dog does not receive minus and continues to carry whatever it's strike points are.

Allen / UKC...
benderb4 is correct. Any time a dog leaves tree, that was declared treed, receives the tree position minus. In this case, you have a dog that was not declared treed so he has no tree point to minus. He rocks on with his strike points still being live._

There's mention of awarding next available tree points. Not in this case. THE only time you award next available tree points is when the tree is scored minus or has off game (for registered)._

Remember this. What needs to happen before you score any tree? A: Two things. 1(dog(s) must be handled and 2) shine time is started._

Next what if question. What if the handler influenced the dog to leave before it could be handled? A: Rule 6 scratches the handler's dog who encourages or discourages a dog.

Posted by Donnie Stevens on 08-11-2020 07:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Green
Thanks Allen. I would have got that one wrong.

Tim you might want to check but it seems to me they might rule different on that across town.

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Posted by pamjohnson on 08-12-2020 02:03 AM:

Allen /ukc

I sure would have gotten this ruling wrong. When the judge said handle your dogs. The judge saw him treeing, declared treed or not at that point the judge saw him treed so he is treed, no make believe about it.
At what point did 'handle your dogs' no longer mean nothing?

Farther more if there was off game in that tree and it was a champion cast does that mean dog b was not molesting offgame?

There is so much wrong with that ruling i don't know where it starts or how far we can take it before we stop.

Posted by Rip on 08-12-2020 03:17 AM:

Re: Allen /ukc

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
I sure would have gotten this ruling wrong. When the judge said handle your dogs. The judge saw him treeing, declared treed or not at that point the judge saw him treed so he is treed, no make believe about it.
At what point did 'handle your dogs' no longer mean nothing?

Farther more if there was off game in that tree and it was a champion cast does that mean dog b was not molesting offgame?

There is so much wrong with that ruling i don't know where it starts or how far we can take it before we stop.

Not trying to argue here just giving you a different way to think about it. If the dog with first tree was there treeing and the judge said "handle your dog" and the dog run off with a coon being seen would you want the dogs strike and tree points plussed? After all the judge saw him treeing and he said handle your dogs. No he gets minus because he left the tree before he was handled.

Here the dog has to be handled and the tree scored in order to assign points. The dog left before he could be handled so there are no points for him to score minus because he wasn't there at the time to assign them.

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 08-12-2020 04:00 AM:

Re: Allen /ukc

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
I sure would have gotten this ruling wrong. When the judge said handle your dogs. The judge saw him treeing, declared treed or not at that point the judge saw him treed so he is treed, no make believe about it.
At what point did 'handle your dogs' no longer mean nothing?

Farther more if there was off game in that tree and it was a champion cast does that mean dog b was not molesting offgame?

There is so much wrong with that ruling i don't know where it starts or how far we can take it before we stop.

Dogs molesting off game simply have to be SEEN doing so the off game doesn't have to be in a tree so yes in this scenario the unhandled dog seen treeing if it was off game would still be scratched in a CH cast. There is the saved by the judge exception found in rule 5(b) if the dog gets to the tree after the judge. Rule 6(f) under scratching offenses refers you to this one.
5(b) No dog to receive minus points for coming into tree
after Judge arrives unless a coon is seen and dogs treed in are awarded plus points.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 08-12-2020 01:04 PM:

Oh my goodness,, "molesting off game", what a stretch. Now that is sure using a rule. You would have made a great lawyer.

Posted by Lance Laymon on 08-12-2020 01:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
benderb4 is correct. Any time a dog leaves tree, that was declared treed, receives the tree position minus. In this case, you have a dog that was not declared treed so he has no tree point to minus. He rocks on with his strike points still being live.
.

I don't completely agree with this explanation. 4h and a. clearly states if seen by judge on tree they are accountable for strike and tree. So it seems to me the dog would have to be struck back in.

Posted by Lance Laymon on 08-12-2020 01:34 PM:

Re: Re: Allen /ukc

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Not trying to argue here just giving you a different way to think about it. If the dog with first tree was there treeing and the judge said "handle your dog" and the dog run off with a coon being seen would you want the dogs strike and tree points plussed? After all the judge saw him treeing and he said handle your dogs. No he gets minus because he left the tree before he was handled.

Here the dog has to be handled and the tree scored in order to assign points. The dog left before he could be handled so there are no points for him to score minus because he wasn't there at the time to assign them.

It is true a dog that left the coon is scored minus tree, but that falls under 4g not 4h. So that is not the same thing. The dog was seen by judge treeing and 4h says accountable for strike and tree points.

Posted by pamjohnson on 08-12-2020 02:08 PM:

Chey I would agree with you but according to Allen , he wouldn't. It can't be both ways. If this dog can be scratched for molesting offgame but some how not minused for leaving this tree I would like to hear it?

Allen/ukc?????

Posted by Rip on 08-12-2020 02:08 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Allen /ukc

quote:
Originally posted by Lance Laymon
It is true a dog that left the coon is scored minus tree, but that falls under 4g not 4h. So that is not the same thing. The dog was seen by judge treeing and 4h says accountable for strike and tree points.

THat's the thing the rule does't say that. You can't score the dog until you score the tree because his score is determined by what is in the tree.

Some were saying because the judge said "handle the dogs" that the dog should be scored as if he was handled.

I used the extreme example of a dog that was declared treed first that left after they said handle the dogs. No one will agree with that. We have specific rules for that and it is clear if a dog leaves the tree before it's handled then it is minus tree points.

In this instance the rules state the treeing but not declared treed will have the strike minused but leaving the tree is not treeing and you have to have the tree scored in order to score that dog. He left before he could be scored and he was never declared treed so it is one of those quirky scoring situations dictated by the rules.

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Posted by Lance Laymon on 08-12-2020 02:15 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Allen /ukc

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
THat's the thing the rule does't say that. You can't score the dog until you score the tree because his score is determined by what is in the tree.

Some were saying because the judge said "handle the dogs" that the dog should be scored as if he was handled.

I used the extreme example of a dog that was declared treed first that left after they said handle the dogs. No one will agree with that. We have specific rules for that and it is clear if a dog leaves the tree before it's handled then it is minus tree points.

In this instance the rules state the treeing but not declared treed will have the strike minused but leaving the tree is not treeing and you have to have the tree scored in order to score that dog. He left before he could be scored and he was never declared treed so it is one of those quirky scoring situations dictated by the rules.

4h doesn't say anything about being handled, only seen.

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