UKC Forums - Slick treeing?

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Posted by OldRook on 02-05-2016 11:27 PM:

Slick treeing?

Where did it start in the Walker breed and why?

Back in the old days it wasn't nearly as prevalent in my limited opinion. They were (Walkers) just as dominant in the hunts back in the day without it?

Thoughts??

Posted by V. Cannon on 02-06-2016 12:27 AM:

There's a very big difference in training practices now compared those a few decades ago. Dogs were taught to trail before they treed. Now most dogs are treeing before they work a track

Posted by on 02-06-2016 01:01 AM:

In the mid 70's Buddy had a real nice Walker from Sabine River Stock. A lot of good things about that dog but would miss a little. Then some crowding billy pups came along and they would miss a little more. I bred a nice down to earth coon dog to Houses Tom Tom in the mid to late 70's. I raised and trained a nice one and his brother went to the NC Mountains and was hunted by old school coon hunters and he turned out a treeing idiot. I know they did't do anything to create it as they were old school and carried an axe. I think Sackett Jr raised the bar on dogs winning and dogs missing. I guess the slick treeing dogs have been around a while. They just weren't talked about and there was no message boards to spread the word. Many just disappeared during the night.

Posted by mr taylor on 02-06-2016 01:24 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by V. Cannon
There's a very big difference in training practices now compared those a few decades ago. Dogs were taught to trail before they treed. Now most dogs are treeing before they work a track

i agree with you on what you said ..
most pups now days are treeing before they are walking ..

Posted by on 02-06-2016 02:30 AM:

Here is when I knew we were in trouble with slick treeing.

I am sure some of you have seen this and scratched your heads about it. I have seen it more than I care to.

In the early 80's we hunted dogs together. You would turn a couple loose and be very proud of how they were hunting as they were gone and out of sight. Then is 15, 20 or 30 minutes you would hear one bark and at almost the same time the other one would bark with it and they would be locked down on a tree. No track in all this time. No independence either. Together all this time and when one looks up the other one is right beside it looking up. I saw this over and over again in different young dogs and it made me rethink what line of dogs I wanted to hunt.

Posted by moonshine man on 02-06-2016 03:51 AM:

Mr Bruce, We without a doubt was hunting with and around a different type or breed of hound in the 80s because i never really seen the big change until late 90s some and full blown by early 2000s and it looks to be here to stay,the thing is everyone is breeding to what the big name dog in the comp circle is and the most of them are breed to do just like you said and thats were the trailing stopped and all the tree started,its a wonderful world.

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Posted by N Williams on 02-06-2016 05:31 AM:

I can tell you that reproducers list ukc has has hurt our hounds. All you need is a tree dawg to make granite. And people get so caught up in that in all breeds. I do not hunt walkers anymore. If I went back to them today I would defiantly go wipeout. Them dogs close zeb again have the meat when they tree. The only walkers I've drew. Maybe 7-8 walkers in the last 5 years I was impressed by. 5 of them were off or grand pups to zeb again. ACCURATE. It's hard to believe but Barry Kiddy told me he just would not miss -zeb again. But you don't get that all grand and them dogs did all there winning in the devil organization where you can win with circle.lol. Thing is slot of cast them dogs wouldn't get treed. Zeb 3 threw 4 world champions and I bet track man had 3 times as many pups. Something to think about.

Posted by N Williams on 02-06-2016 05:43 AM:

Well I've heard 4 but I know of 2 world champs. I know of 3 dee and Jesse Jane. Has there been anymore? Sorry if I got that wrong. I would sure like to know how much $$$ zeb again pups and grand pups gave won in the $$$ hunts.

Posted by Mike Knuckols on 02-06-2016 09:21 AM:

Its not just the Walkers !. They are all missing coons stand on their heads . I dont see the other breeds doing much in the hunts at all either . If they were accurate they would be in the winners circle but theyre not ? Ive been with some nice dogs of all breeds but when the coons start rutting they all start missing more for some reason at least thats my experience .

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Posted by jimbob_walker on 02-06-2016 03:12 PM:

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I have not had the experience with the slick teeing everyone is hung up on. Don't get me wrong, I have had plenty of slick trees over the years, but just here and there. Even during the winter months up north here, I get very limited den trees. During the rut, 7 out of 10 dens have coon on the outside or your can look in and see at least 1 coon. So far this winter I've only had 2 bad nights. Many will say I'm blowing smoke, but I'm willing to go out any night. I have probably the best hounds I've ever owned in my kennel today.

Posted by Grant Noeske on 02-06-2016 05:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by N Williams
I can tell you that reproducers list ukc has has hurt our hounds. All you need is a tree dawg to make granite. And people get so caught up in that in all breeds. I do not hunt walkers anymore. If I went back to them today I would defiantly go wipeout. Them dogs close zeb again have the meat when they tree. The only walkers I've drew. Maybe 7-8 walkers in the last 5 years I was impressed by. 5 of them were off or grand pups to zeb again. ACCURATE. It's hard to believe but Barry Kiddy told me he just would not miss -zeb again. But you don't get that all grand and them dogs did all there winning in the devil organization where you can win with circle.lol. Thing is slot of cast them dogs wouldn't get treed. Zeb 3 threw 4 world champions and I bet track man had 3 times as many pups. Something to think about.

Just out of curiosity, what would you expect from a dog bred like this?

...............PCH Wipeout Zack
..........PCH Wipeout Zeb Again
...............PCH Wipeout Ruby
.....PCH American Express
...............PCH Tequila Sunrise
..........CH Georgia Cyclone
...............PCH Carolina Peach
Female
...............PCH Zeb Again
..........PCH Zeb 3
...............Back Country Dusty (PCH Stylish Clover x GCH M/F Wipeout Kate (Snug)
.....Wipeout Dolly
...............PCH Wipeout Willie
..........Wipeout Wendy
...............GCH M/F Wipeout Kate (Snug) (PCH Wipeout Zeb x McQueen & Fergy's Polly)

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Posted by N Williams on 02-06-2016 07:16 PM:

Well that hound is breed real tight wipeout. You would expect it to trail to much and be accurate. I have seen some that had slick treeing problems. I will tell you most if the dogs in her pedigree were deadly accurate.

Posted by Grant Noeske on 02-06-2016 07:39 PM:

Trailing too much is NOT a problem! LOL! I bought her at 15 months expecting exactly what you described of the Wipeout bred dogs. She's in northwestern Illinois and I'm not aware of any other Wipeout bred dogs anywhere in the area. She's not quite as accurate as I expected her to be, but she is definitely action packed and makes things happen pretty quick. I think she's one that is going to keep improving on her accuracy as she ages. She won't just go in and grab trees. She puts her tracking work in, but doesn't always finish it off correctly.

My other gyp that's a grandpup of Rapid River Sockett, Salt Creek Kiss This and Skuna River Fred is more accurate (the mother is pretty accurate and trailed too much when she was young). They are only days apart in age (both will be four in early May) and I would have expected them to operate exactly the opposite of what they do. I think I ended up with the exception to the rule for both lines of dogs (Sackett/Nailor and Wipeout).

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Posted by N Williams on 02-07-2016 06:38 AM:

Dog off zeb again wins the truck hunt tonight. Scored on 2 trees with 2 coons seen.

Posted by on 02-07-2016 11:17 AM:

Yep. Nate you asked about his offsprings winnings. I have a fairly new set of papers that showed $440,000 not counting that truck. Getting close to $500K

Posted by shadinc on 02-07-2016 01:51 PM:

WOW!! Fifteen posts about slick treeing and not one mention of training. All breeding.

Posted by N Williams on 02-07-2016 01:52 PM:

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce M. Conkey
Yep. Nate you asked about his offsprings winnings. I have a fairly new set of papers that showed $440,000 not counting that truck. Getting close to $500K

Yep Bruce zeb again would help solve alot of people's problems in walker breed. But let them keep hunting all of those other lines. I asked Barry this question one time. " Of all those great wipeout dogs you handled and hunted with one; moose, zeb, zeb3, hard rock, hellbilly, ruby, triple treat, list goes on, which one was most accurate? He said without hesitation zeb again. I asked him this " if I came to your house and we hunted him all winter hard from dark till the sun came up 5-6 nights a week in the most brutal conditions you could turn a hound loose in , how many trees that hole winter would we not see a coon in"? He said I would no believe him but none. Lol. He said hellbilly missed the most and he blamed it on saccett jr. He said again, 3, and the original Zeb dog were just different. They treed because the had to. You could pull them off a tree walk them 20 feet and they left hunting again because they were just as happy trailing as they were treed. But the public overall loves and wants those pups hunt ready at 10 months and you didn't always get that with that line.

Posted by N Williams on 02-07-2016 02:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
WOW!! Fifteen posts about slick treeing and not one mention of training. All breeding.

Let me tell you my opinion because I hear this alot. If no coon is there a dog does not have to bark up a tree. I had rather had a young hound that didn't get treed very often but when they did have a coon as I had one that I had wip off slick trees. Some hounds have locating ability. They know where the coon is. There few and far. People need to breed for that trait.

Posted by Grant Noeske on 02-07-2016 02:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
WOW!! Fifteen posts about slick treeing and not one mention of training. All breeding.

I'll post on it. Regardless of how it's bred, people need to be honest with themselves about what their dog does. That's one of the bigger problems I see. People fall in love with their own dogs and make excuses, rather than focusing their training efforts on problems like slick treeing. If it slick trees, the dog needs to be corrected consistently. Correct the dog, circle the tree with it on the leash to make it pick up the track going away from the tree and make it finish the track right. (That's how my dad taught me to deal with it, anyway).

I had a Stylish Harry gyp about 14 years ago that was terrible about slick treeing. A buddy of mine hunted her for a while and REALLY got on her about the slicks. He started feeling guilty about how hard he had to get on her. She improved, made Dual Grand and won the Missouri State Federation hunt after I sold her. She was a legit first strike dog and could flat out destroy a cast when she was on.

However... All that said, why would I want to raise pups out of something like that when there are lines out there that are naturally more accurate? Why put yourself through that frustration when there are other options? Sure she could win, but when she treed, I never had confidence that she'd have the coon, even after our training work had generated an improvement in her accuracy.

That's just my opinion.

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Posted by Grant Noeske on 02-07-2016 02:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by N Williams
Let me tell you my opinion because I hear this alot. If no coon is there a dog does not have to bark up a tree. I had rather had a young hound that didn't get treed very often but when they did have a coon as I had one that I had wip off slick trees. Some hounds have locating ability. They know where the coon is. There few and far. People need to breed for that trait.

Amen.

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Posted by on 02-07-2016 03:03 PM:

After traveling the country some last year I have came to the conclusion that most people just accept a dog treeing slick and they don't care or don't feel they can correct it.

Down here in these swamps it is hard and your better off just not putting up with one doing it. Why?
Because you cannot truthful tell in a short period of time if the coon is there or not. Second is you travel a half mile or so to the thickest part of the swamp you have to really want to train one to send the off the tree there.

Now last spring I was in IN and there I could stop one from slick treeing if it was possible. No Leaves and by the time you got to the tree you pretty much had it figured out.

The best excuse I ever heard to circle a slick tree came from IN. Guy voted to circle cause he couldn't seen the top of the tree. A little brighter light was put in the top of the tree and the guy said that wasn't his light and with his light he couldn't tell if there was a coon up there or not. He even convinced another guy to vote circle also.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-07-2016 03:11 PM:

Re: Slick treeing?

quote:
Originally posted by OldRook
Where did it start in the Walker breed and why?

.........Rat Attack....... Why did it start? Because they were winners. They weren't any fun to hunt and sometimes downright embarrasing but you sure could win a bunch of money with them.

And then Mr Kiddy came along.

Where do you think all of the emphasis on independance came from. First there were the slow but accurate hounds. But the only way that you could win with them was to be deep and alone. So that is where we are today.

Posted by msinc on 02-07-2016 03:14 PM:

I believe that "putting up with it" is about half terrain related and the other half guys that just slap don't have a clue how to deal with it. You can best believe there are fewer slick treeing dogs in places like West Virginia or Kentucky...hike those mountains night after night to go to a slick tree??? I don't think so, they may have the same number of dogs that try it but I'd bet those type dogs don't stay around there.
Most guys are so happy to have a dog tree they will not correct the dog for fear they will "ruin it"...what good is it slick treeing???
Many don't believe one of the main reasons dogs slick tree...they are not running a coon to start with, so how are you going to see one??
Last night we had a 7 year old dog take off by itself on a track, run 500 or so yards to tree slick. The other three dogs were not interested. I don't know what this dog ran, but I know it wasn't a coon, it didn't climb and it wasn't no ghost either!!! This dog was not a walker and was a grand nite champion.

Posted by mhardy on 02-07-2016 03:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
WOW!! Fifteen posts about slick treeing and not one mention of training. All breeding.

if you have to TRAIN one not to slick tree your right back where you started.seems to me a good track dog will help things a lot.

Posted by mr taylor on 02-07-2016 04:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
WOW!! Fifteen posts about slick treeing and not one mention of training. All breeding.

Originally posted by shadinc
Some of it is in training now, because of the tree happy dogs we're breeding. I'm not upset with anyone for doing this. I've followed both kinds. No tree and all tree. Give me the tree dog. At least I can catch him and go home. I'm partly responsible for this. I always bred to the best tree dog available. I was vice president of my eight grade class in 1956.
you said it was both training and breeding yesterday and we agreed on another thread ..

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