UKC Forums - Night Hunt Cast Judges

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-- Night Hunt Cast Judges (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928417093)

Posted by scoham on 05-02-2015 03:35 PM:

Night Hunt Cast Judges

Would you like to see/support Judges to be tested and certified before they are allowed to judge a cast?

1. Yes

2. No

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Posted by River Birch Run on 05-02-2015 03:52 PM:

I voted yes, however it just is not possible. When you go to bigger hunts you have 150 to 200 dogs good luck finding enough judges that have taken the test. Not to mention you can take the test and pass it but until you have been in many hunts/cast you really don't understand how the rules should be applied. We have several MOH in our area that have never been in a cast. They don't have a clue how things happen in a cast and simply read the rules and guess as to how a ruling should be. Others read the rules and know them but don't agree with them all so they don't apply the ones they disagree with.

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Posted by RLenhart on 05-02-2015 03:53 PM:

I voted No

I would have liked to vote yes but for one simple problem. What would you do especially at some of these smaller hunts if nobody except the MOH showed up that had certs to judge?

Posted by Autumn Clements on 05-02-2015 07:14 PM:

not even a possibility for small hunts

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Posted by Tim MACHA on 05-02-2015 11:41 PM:

I don't think it would work

Most people would look at it as a way to get out of judging and not take the test.

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Posted by blackflagginit on 05-03-2015 04:16 AM:

Re: I don't think it would work

quote:
Originally posted by Tim MACHA
Most people would look at it as a way to get out of judging and not take the test.

that's prob exactly what would happen.

I remember in the old days of non hunting judges in NTCH casts, a lot of new hunters, myself included, got forged in fire by being handed a card and a "here go judge that cast".

in fact I had JUDGED a dozen or more NTCH casts before I ever so much as entered a dog in a night hunt.

I was still learning the ropes, spectating mostly, and really had no business having a card in my hand. I think I was all of 14 or 15 the first time. I did it for the clubs, and I made mistakes the MOH had to fix, but one way or another we always worked it out.

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Posted by high ridge on 05-03-2015 07:18 AM:

Re: I don't think it would work

quote:
Originally posted by Tim MACHA
Most people would look at it as a way to get out of judging and not take the test.

I voted yes for that very reason.

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Posted by krazyassndn on 05-03-2015 01:57 PM:

I VOTED NO the reason I normally have to judge which is fine I kinda like it for the most part but we have a small club how would you get the judges we had trouble finding ones that want to hunt let alone judge jmo

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Posted by Cowboyred on 05-03-2015 05:09 PM:

In an ideal world it would be nice to have cert. judges, but at present there's no way it would work.
What would the test even look like? Example: can you read and write, can you add and subtract, can you tell time? Congratulations, you're a certified judge! (just a little sarcastic humor)

Posted by groworg1 on 05-03-2015 06:10 PM:

no ! its up to you to know the rules ! if your hunting in the night hunts and you don't own or have never read the advisor your making a huge mistake as this is the rule book for the rule book and just because a judge is certified doesn't mean he or her will be honest so best bet is to be as well educated as possible thank you Hersh for my copy

Posted by Robert Johnson on 05-04-2015 02:37 PM:

Tim is dead on in his assumption. Its hard enough to find a good judge now. Add to that he/she has to bring a certification card to every hunt, and you most likely will not have a hunt.

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Posted by Robert Johnson on 05-04-2015 02:37 PM:

Tim is dead on in his assumption. Its hard enough to find a good judge now. Add to that he/she has to bring a certification card to every hunt, and you most likely will not have a hunt.

Posted by RLenhart on 05-04-2015 04:07 PM:

I'm surprised!

Every one of us that posted a comment was a NO but yet the numbers still say yes. 62%yes - 37%no ???

Posted by Robert Johnson on 05-04-2015 04:15 PM:

Re: I'm surprised!

quote:
Originally posted by RLenhart
Every one of us that posted a comment was a NO but yet the numbers still say yes. 62%yes - 37%no ???

That YES percentage is from all the folks that posted on here in the past that had a judging complaint, but a large percentage of even those will no offer to learn enough or step up to judge themselves.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 05-04-2015 04:33 PM:

Maybe you should start a post that asked ,"how many people would be willing to be certified to judge a cast"?

Posted by on 05-04-2015 05:19 PM:

Here is the way I look at it with judges. It is a hard, hard J O B. The better the judge knows the rules and the firmer he is controlling the cast the better off everyone will be. Now making an honest mistake if everyone agrees and it gives the dog performing like a coonhound the credit, I can live with that. (this is only a coonhunt) Yes learn from the mistake but it was not a cheating incident, just a mistake. The problem comes when all the Coon Club Lawyers are told about the cast which generally have 4 versions. They then convince the handler they were cheated and the snowball starts. Easy way to stop snowballs is it learn the rules. But ask a rules question on here and after about 6 different answers you start to wonder WHO KNOWS THE RULES. I am Thankful for anyone that Judges and honest mistakes are always understood and forgiven.

Here is my answer to some of the problem. I tried this about 10 years ago on here and it worked for a while till everyone was mad at one another and there was no SUPPORT FROM UKC to give the correct answer.
I started with RULE 1 and it was typed out and discussed. The next day if rule 1 had a subset then it was typed out and discussed. Before we moved to rule two everyone on here had an understanding of the rule. That would be a good undertaking for someone and UKC should give a special section for it and they should help with clarifications if we have too many questions and run into a roadblock.

Wanted--A person that would do this and keep up with it until every rule is discussed and understood, rule by rule.

Posted by walkerman75 on 05-04-2015 10:43 PM:

i alwas judge a cast, an ill minus my dog same as your dog.. fair is fair... but if ya want to make it were have to have a certifcate to judge. well the judge that always cheats to benifit himself will go get certified .. around here nobody wants to judge cuz they say its harder to hunt a dog,, well sometimes it is,, but somebody has to judge... if judge makes bad call ,, vote on it.. all you can do.. i have drawed judges that were not good, only judged cuz thats only way they could win.. but i have drawed more good judges then bad... jmo

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Posted by chuck west on 05-04-2015 11:52 PM:

Wanted--A person that would do this and keep up with it until every rule is discussed and understood, rule by rule.

I nominate Jim Sizemore for the job !!

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Posted by Stan Ferrell on 05-05-2015 12:35 PM:

How bout we simplify the rules and write them in English?
2 Hr. hunt no time outs
Tree points only, + or minus only.
Scratch on off game etc.
Make the rules so anyone could judge, not just Jim.

Posted by novicane65 on 05-05-2015 01:44 PM:

Here's the reason I said yes to this.

Example: NAVDHA judges are required to do an apprenticeship. If you're an app you have a score card just like any other judge in the panel but until you know all of the rules and are making the right decisions you don't get the cert for judging. Then you have the requirements for you to have a dog reach the Highest level of competition (invitational) within the past 10 years I think is what it states. After that for you to keep the judge status you have to have another dog reach that level again within the 10 years of your last invitational dog tested. The only other thing id add is that, if you have a dog being tested you CAN NOT TEST SAME DAY AS JUDGEING. And most people don't test that whole weekend.

I've seen judges that weren't worth a darn. But for the most part the majority were very good.

I'm not saying that we need to be like the other KC's but it would be nice to let the best dog win not the best handler.

Posted by Harry Middleton on 05-05-2015 04:42 PM:

In my opinion certifying judges will never happen. Turnouts at these hunts are down to about nothing. My opinion on that.......too many kennel clubs with 2-3 favoring "this one" and 2-3 favoring "that one". That's 4-6 you don't have anymore. I've hunted for many years, and I took a break for many to help raise my son. Back before all the other clubs came upon us, our small club would have 20-25 dogs at, say a sectional hunt. Lucky to get that many for the whole year. Anyway, we had club hunts and buddy hunts that always had a good turnout. At those hunts we assigned a judge. We also put a card in everyone's hands. Everyone kept score and time was taken to discuss why a decision was made. After some time doing that we rarely had a problem finding judges. You see threads on all the sites with rules questions. And you see some very educated judges going back and forth about what was right and what was wrong. Interpreting some rules are tough, but as good sports we are obligated to make the best decision possible. I think I'm gonna start a new KC, RAKC. Run Anything Kennel Club. Run it, see it, plus em up. If you wanna drink a cold beverage of your choice when it's over (no I don't drink) then bottoms up.
Good idea Bruce.......you have my nomination. Lol. Hope you're well down in Florida.

Posted by deschmidt27 on 05-05-2015 05:54 PM:

I think the issue is... most everyone would like it, IF it were possible! We pay our money for a competition, and we are supposed to be provided with a "qualified" judge to ensure rules are adhered to, and every DOG (not handler) gets a fair shake.

BUT the reality is, as so many stated, that it's not feasible at the local level.

Now... another option to what Bruce proposed, would be for each club that hosts events, to do that very thing at their club. Have a "lunch and learn" and teach/discuss the rules so that they can provide "qualified" judges to their patrons.

The truth is, clubs make some money (although very little) off of events, and they are responsible for ensuring that they provide capable judges and guides. So perhaps the question to be answered is, how are they addressing that responsibility?

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Posted by GA DAWG on 05-05-2015 10:15 PM:

Cant even get nobody to help mow or work on building or show up at any hunts at my club. I dont know how Id get em to learn nothin

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Posted by Jon Millwood on 05-06-2015 12:27 AM:

What does it matter if the judge is certified? He has no authority over a majority cast.. If people would follow the most important 2 things
1. knowing the rules
2. Speak up when somethings not right.
it would eliminate 100% of the BS that goes on.

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Posted by Eric Lingerfelt on 05-06-2015 01:10 AM:

I think the best thing to do is for a person to be eligible to handle a dog in a hunt they should have to be certified. That would eliminate two problems, #1, a handler feeling he was cheated by judge when he really don't know the rules, #2 the judge cheating or taking advantage of handlers that don't know the rules. If both were certified, both parties would be accountable to each other.

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