UKC Forums - NITECH Rule change?

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-- NITECH Rule change? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=291095)

Posted by Slate Creek on 08-02-2009 01:16 PM:

NITECH Rule change?

How does 5 hunt wins or 10 cast wins (with plus points) sound?

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Posted by on 08-02-2009 01:35 PM:

My female has 16 cast wins and 3 wins towards grand and I say no way. It takes 5 wins and that is the way it should stay. JMO.

Posted by Robert Johnson on 08-02-2009 02:11 PM:

nope....special dogs move on to the next level....some do it very fast, others take time. in no way would i want to water down these past honors of dogs who have done it this way. leave it alone..hunt your dog...if he/she has it in them, it will come in time. if not, then it wasn't meant to be.

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Posted by chadhendrix on 08-02-2009 02:16 PM:

I think it should stay the same. When I started hunting over 20 years ago if you went to a hunt at my club there would be 45 to 60 dogs. Now you go and if there are 20 it is a good turn out.That makes it easier already. So when I hear Nite Champion now it means less than it used to. So don't dilute the Grand Nite title too.

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Posted by Slate Creek on 08-02-2009 02:18 PM:

Thanks Jim and I respect your opinion. Would you agree that winning a hunt depends more on the guide/judge/and cast members than it does the dog? How many times did you wonder about the other cast scores you lost?

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Posted by kurt benson on 08-02-2009 02:53 PM:

EASY...LOL....YOU GUYS IN THE SOUTHERN CLUBS USE FEEDER BUCKETS AT THE HUNTS....HUNT IN THE NORTH WE DO IT THE OLD FASHION WAY JUST CUT'EM LOOSE....NO WONDER THESE YOUNG DOGS MAKE NITECH SO EARLY...I REALIZE YOU DON'T HAVE QUITE THE COON POPULATION THAT WE DO IN THE NORTH...LET THE DOG EARN IT....IF IT'S IN HIM/HER THEY WON'T NEED THE HELP OF THE BUCKET....FINE FOR TRAING BUT NOT AT HUNTIN CLUBS...JMO

Posted by on 08-02-2009 02:53 PM:

Sure guides make a huge difference in UKC. That is just part of hunting in UKC.
AKC awards Nt Ch for 5 plus points cast wins, GrNtCh for 5 more, Supreme GrNtCh for 5 more. My bitch has 13 in AKC and is two away from Supreme. That is the way it is in AKC. PKC titles are based on money won. Choose your poison.

Posted by longshot on 08-02-2009 02:54 PM:

You have a valid point about wins. It took me 11 NT CH wins to make mine GRNTCH. Thats 6 times I won and went home empty. It is frustraiting to say the least.

BUT , I wouldn't change it. It has been that way for many years and the great dogs still make it though eventually. It is a time honored tradition to achieve GRNTCH . It is like Major league baseball. . I'd hate to see Baseball start giving a hitter 4 strikes at the plate after all these years.

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Posted by Rip on 08-02-2009 02:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by kurt benson
EASY...LOL....YOU GUYS IN THE SOUTHERN CLUBS USE FEEDER BUCKETS AT THE HUNTS....HUNT IN THE NORTH WE DO IT THE OLD FASHION WAY JUST CUT'EM LOOSE....NO WONDER THESE YOUNG DOGS MAKE NITECH SO EARLY...I REALIZE YOU DON'T HAVE QUITE THE COON POPULATION THAT WE DO IN THE NORTH...LET THE DOG EARN IT....IF IT'S IN HIM/HER THEY WON'T NEED THE HELP OF THE BUCKET....FINE FOR TRAING BUT NOT AT HUNTIN CLUBS...JMO

It's easier for your dogs to tree "wild" coon than for ours to tree "bucket" coon in many places.

You just don't understand how thin coon can be in parts of the south. I mean to the point that you might have one coon usin that bucket, and he may only use it once every 2-3 nights, and if you do strike him he will still be a runnin coon and might go a half a mile or better pullin hair before he decides to tree. A quarter mile race is a "pop up" in many places.

Buckets can be a huge advantage in some places, but in many places I have had to hunt a bucket only meant you might get one struck there every 3-4 times you turn loose.

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Posted by Slate Creek on 08-02-2009 03:17 PM:

Nite ch

If I ever do get one I plan to travel North to enter hunts (thats a whole different subject), the reason I asked the question is because I know some guys go for Nitech and then quit going to hunts (and I cant blame them around here), and some go to hunts and wont "run" the score up to win it (good folk) and then there is the economy and how much $$$ it cost for those that keep winning cast with no return, I hope to earn grand by however the rules are "someday"

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Posted by topdog on 08-02-2009 04:51 PM:

Cast wins vs. overall winners

North and south has advantages and disadvantages. It's not always about whether there is a good coon population or not because there are other factors that even it out.

In Wisconsin, Minnesota and other northern states, the hunts basically shut down in November and we don't see another one until March so we have about 7-8 months to get our wins, depending again of course on how close a hunt is, travel time, etc. In the south, many states are running multiple hunts every weekend throughout the entire year so you have a choice to enter a hunt every weekend of every month, once again limited by travel and the other factors I listed above.

Ultimately, it's always a matter of having a dog that is competitive, night in and night out and then having more repetitions or opportunities to actually get into a hunt and compete. I can see where cast wins would be a nice way to improve opportunities for winning titles if the availability of hunts is limited but...on the other hand...we have finished a lot of dogs hunting competition only 6 months out of the year so I wonder why other folks shouldn't be held to the same standard.

Nowadays, I think it's more important to simply allow the dogs to win overall instead of cast wins because in many places, you're just competing against 3 other dogs, with maybe one Nite Champion cast...maybe 2 casts. No matter what the circumstances, you're always only competing against a maximum of 3 other dogs to win a cast and after that, let the chips fall where they may and leave it the same to make Grand Nite Ch. If the hunts start averaging 3-4 Nite Ch. casts for every hunt, then consider going to a cast win system because not every cast is going to have the same opportunity to be able to score enough coons to win overall.

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Posted by liberalcreek on 08-02-2009 05:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by kurt benson
.HUNT IN THE NORTH WE DO IT THE OLD FASHION WAY JUST CUT'EM LOOSE...

Yeah, Cutting them loose around a 30 acre" feed bucket" with a strip of trees in between another "30 acre feed bucket".

I send alot of pups up north to be started. It is a great place to put them on a ton of hot tracks and they will see way more coon than they could down here.

One thing all of those pups I bring back down here have in common, they dont know how to get out and hunt. They are expecting a hot track 50 yards from the tailgate every time you drop them. It takes them a few weeks to realize they bave to get out and hunt.

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Posted by Lowell Lynn on 08-02-2009 05:39 PM:

LOL. OLD FASHION WAY? I HAVE SEEN 55GAL. DRUMS ATTATCHED TO TREES UP IN MICH. MORE THEN ONCE. THATS FUNNY RIGHT THERE.

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Posted by mike bryant on 08-02-2009 06:01 PM:

Winning your cast

All you can do in any hunt beat the dogs you are hunting against. Once you do that it becomes luck, that being said I think that UKC should leave it alone I don't see a reasons for any changes unless you make it harder like 20 cw's or 5 first place wins. Other wise leave it alone. Remember we have other opitions we can use in reguard's to CW's.

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Posted by jackbob42 on 08-02-2009 07:03 PM:

Why don't you guys quit with the north-south , bucket - corn field crap.
Man , that sure gets old after awhile !

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Posted by Slate Creek on 08-02-2009 07:04 PM:

other options

around here are coon goggles and a sharp pencil.

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Posted by jackbob42 on 08-02-2009 07:05 PM:

Re: Nite ch

quote:
Originally posted by Slate Creek
If I ever do get one I plan to travel North to enter hunts (thats a whole different subject), the reason I asked the question is because I know some guys go for Nitech and then quit going to hunts (and I cant blame them around here), and some go to hunts and wont "run" the score up to win it (good folk) and then there is the economy and how much $$$ it cost for those that keep winning cast with no return, I hope to earn grand by however the rules are "someday"

All the more reason to become a member of a local club and volunteer to judge and guide. To make sure you don't get cheated and to make sure you put your cast in enough coons to win the hunt !

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Posted by GO BLUE on 08-02-2009 08:02 PM:

STAY!!!!!!!

keep it the way it is!!!!!

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Posted by kurt benson on 08-02-2009 08:14 PM:

you gentlemen are more than welcome to come hunt everywhere i do and show me a feed bucket in the woods...i live in northern mich. no use for the bucket...you want to work your dog turn'em in to a cornfield in the fall and let them sort out all those tracks..i hunt mainly farm land some hard woods

Posted by Randy Tallon on 08-02-2009 08:40 PM:

If a dog is coming in with cast wins with plus points continuously and getting beat certain things are happenning. Alot of times the dogs in that cast might have been the only viable dogs in the hunt that night and basically eliminated each other and resulted in a low score because of the competition in the cast. Should that dog be penalized because it had a hard draw? I have a GrNt in the kennel that had 12 cast wins between win #4 and #5. Some of the scores with good scores. (700 and beat by 725, 775 and beat by 825, 650 and beat by.....1200...yea, I wondered, too... There were a few over 500 and he got beat.) There should be SOME kind of justice for dogs like that..... I used to say the hunts were 50% dog and 50% luck. I've ran them long enough to know that it's more 60% luck. We're spending entry fees, gas, wear and tear on a vehicle, spending a lot of time and relying on a lot of luck for no return when a dog went out and did a good job just to get beat by 25 points.

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Posted by Christy on 08-03-2009 12:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by kurt benson
EASY...LOL....YOU GUYS IN THE SOUTHERN CLUBS USE FEEDER BUCKETS AT THE HUNTS....HUNT IN THE NORTH WE DO IT THE OLD FASHION WAY JUST CUT'EM LOOSE....NO WONDER THESE YOUNG DOGS MAKE NITECH SO EARLY...I REALIZE YOU DON'T HAVE QUITE THE COON POPULATION THAT WE DO IN THE NORTH...LET THE DOG EARN IT....IF IT'S IN HIM/HER THEY WON'T NEED THE HELP OF THE BUCKET....FINE FOR TRAING BUT NOT AT HUNTIN CLUBS...JMO

quote:
Originally posted by kurt benson
you gentlemen are more than welcome to come hunt everywhere i do and show me a feed bucket in the woods...i live in northern mich. no use for the bucket...you want to work your dog turn'em in to a cornfield in the fall and let them sort out all those tracks..i hunt mainly farm land some hard woods

TELL ME KURT....BECAUSE I AM JUST DYING TO KNOW!!! WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A FEEDER BUCKET FULL OF CORN AND A CORNFIELD FULL OF CORN?

U HUNT 20+ ACRE FEEDER BUCKETS WHERE THERE MIGHT BE 15 COON IN THAT ONE FIELD.

WHERE WE HUNT THERE MIGHT BE 15 COON IN ONE COUNTY. IF YOU TREE 2 COONS A NIGHT AROUND HERE YOU ARE DOING GOOD.

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Posted by Christy on 08-03-2009 12:18 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Randy Tallon
If a dog is coming in with cast wins with plus points continuously and getting beat certain things are happenning. Alot of times the dogs in that cast might have been the only viable dogs in the hunt that night and basically eliminated each other and resulted in a low score because of the competition in the cast. Should that dog be penalized because it had a hard draw? I have a GrNt in the kennel that had 12 cast wins between win #4 and #5. Some of the scores with good scores. (700 and beat by 725, 775 and beat by 825, 650 and beat by.....1200...yea, I wondered, too... There were a few over 500 and he got beat.) There should be SOME kind of justice for dogs like that..... I used to say the hunts were 50% dog and 50% luck. I've ran them long enough to know that it's more 60% luck. We're spending entry fees, gas, wear and tear on a vehicle, spending a lot of time and relying on a lot of luck for no return when a dog went out and did a good job just to get beat by 25 points.

I AGREE. I THINK THAT IF YOU WIN 10 CASTS, YOU SHOULD GET A WIN TOWARDS GRNTCH. THAT WAY, YOU WILL EVENTUALLY FINISH YOUR DOG EVEN IF IT NEVER GETS A 1ST.

TELL ME, DOESNT A DOG THAT WINS 50 NTCH CASTS DESERVE A GRNTCH TITLE JUST AS MUCH AS A DOG THAT ONLY WON 5 AND BEAT OUT THE OTHER DOG BY 25 POINTS ON THOSE 5 CASTS?

I THINK SO. THE DOG DID IT'S JOB, IT BEAT THE DOGS ON IT'S CAST. IT COMES DOWN TO LUCK ON WHOEVER GETS THE HIGHER SCORE......JMO

Posted by on 08-03-2009 12:47 AM:

"HORSE PUCKY"!!

Ya gotta be out of your mind to wanna change the game to a "GIVE ME A WIN" mentality??

These hunt's now-a-day's are but a pimple on the butt of what they usta be & built "OUR" chosen breed's if title's matter to ya?. Somebody decided it would be great to allow them to babble every turn out with little recourse along the way so the desire to not worryin about "Honest" hound's in a breeding program is now the norm.

Now you want a booby prize for not winnin it all?? That would be a slap in the face to the hound's & the men & women that followed them to create what any of us feed today. Every dog out there with one ear & two leg's would be a grntch,had a hard time typin that in there so went with baby letter's!

Yes there is some luck involved in the guide department but generally your most counted on luck should be on the end of your leash. I don't like the akc version of "GIMME A WIN" & please don't try makin this anything like it,not that there's a snowball's chance anyway.

Plenty of 8 dog's entered in the hunt GrNtCh's out there already. I know, "You can only beat what is entered" but my point is,how many of them would make it to that level "IF" ?

The title of "UKC GrNtCh" is still the pinnacle to more of us than not on this board I would imagine? Concellation prize's are for loser's in game show's so they can afford to get back home.

That's what I got'ta say 'bout all dat~~ "Thank you very much"!!~~

Posted by Phantom on 08-03-2009 01:10 AM:

Originally posted Christy

TELL ME, DOESNT A DOG THAT WINS 50 NTCH CASTS DESERVE A GRNTCH TITLE JUST AS MUCH AS A DOG THAT ONLY WON 5 AND BEAT OUT THE OTHER DOG BY 25 POINTS ON THOSE 5 CASTS?
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No

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Posted by hammer blz on 08-03-2009 01:20 AM:

keep it the way it is theres not enough ukc hunts around here for all that and thin coon i been to the same club 4 times and no nitech cast winners and the 5th time i went my female treed the only coon in a two hour hunt ,this was 5 ukc hunts in a row and they run in there woods the whole time so i think its hard enough and cost alot to drive to drive to these hunts someone 's always wanting to change rules just hunt !!!

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