UKC Forums - Performance Programs ??

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-- Performance Programs ?? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=217304)

Posted by Majestic Tree H on 07-06-2008 03:23 PM:

Performance Programs ??

Is anyone else seeing a disturbing trend with the Performance Programs ???
Free Stud Service
Door to Door Stud Delivery Service

Pups that Cost more to produce than what the Breeder Receives after Registering the pups in all the Performance Programs
Giving Pups away that are enrolled in the Program, $$ Incentives to Hunt and Title pups.

And this One Really can't be good for the Breeds .. Produce 100 Pups from a Stud so He can be enrolled in the Performance Program !!!!

Its all a game of Percentages of Pups Earning Titles ... Why can't they be enrolled on 25 Pups .. 185 Studs up for Enrollment 185 X 100 "pups" Thats 18,500 pups

When the same percentage can be determined by 25 Pups .. Thats 4,625 pups .. 13,875 Less pups to be Culled..

Oh yea I forgot the Breeders / Stud Owners receives some $$$ back by continuing to Mass produce Pups which may earn Titles ..

Come On Fokes "Wake Up" and look at the shear numbers !!

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Posted by coonhunter517 on 07-06-2008 03:37 PM:

AGREED

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Posted by Majestic Tree H on 07-06-2008 04:10 PM:

This is a Quote from a Ad I just read.. "SS paid up uck not pp $200 each or I'll dig a hole I'm not shy".

Do you See

Posted by josh on 07-06-2008 04:17 PM:

I think your a little confused about the Perforfance program.

The only reason a stud needs 100 pups is to be eligable for the top reproducers list...This has nothing to do with the performance program.

As far as complaining about the return on the investment of raising a litter.....

Posted by Majestic Tree H on 07-06-2008 04:27 PM:

WTF !! and You don't think Every Stud owner out their is'nt trying to Get on the List .

Posted by josh on 07-06-2008 04:35 PM:

No I dont.

No more than I think every dog that enters an RQE is tring to run the Purina race....

Posted by Maniac on 07-06-2008 04:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Majestic Tree H
WTF !! and You don't think Every Stud owner out their is'nt trying to Get on the List .

IM A STUD OWN. AND IT REALY DOESNT MATTER TO ME IF IM ON THE LIST OR NOT. I HAVE A STUD DOG THAT HAS BEEN ON THE REPRODUCEING LIST FOR THE LAST 7 YEARS. AND HE HAS BEEN OVER LOOK . SO THIS DOESNT MEAN THAT YOUR MAKEING$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$

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Posted by Majestic Tree H on 07-06-2008 04:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Maniac
IM A STUD OWN. AND IT REALY DOESNT MATTER TO ME IF IM ON THE LIST OR NOT. I HAVE A STUD DOG THAT HAS BEEN ON THE REPRODUCEING LIST FOR THE LAST 7 YEARS. AND HE HAS BEEN OVER LOOK . SO THIS DOESNT MEAN THAT YOUR MAKEING$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$

Do You really want me to continue to bring Quotes form Ads over..

So your 1 out of 100 ??

How Many Pups have you produced thru out the Registries. ??

Posted by Maniac on 07-06-2008 04:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Majestic Tree H
Do You really want me to continue to bring Quotes form Ads over..

So your 1 out of 100 ??

How Many Pups have you produced thru out the Registries. ??

178 IN 9 YEARS THERE ARE TO MANY PEOPLE AROUND HERE THAT ARE JELOUS SO THEY WILL DRIVE 600 MILE TO BREED THERE FEMALE TO ANOTHER STUD DOG THAT ISNT UNDER THE REPRODUCEING LIST.BUT THERE IS ONE GUY AROUND HER ALL HE DOES IS RUN A PUPY FACTORY. AND HE IS SO JELOUS OF MY HOUNDS.

Posted by Majestic Tree H on 07-06-2008 04:49 PM:

Has any of the Programs Yielded a Higher Quality of Pups Per litter ?? Or Just Quality.. The Percentage Is Still The Same >>

Posted by Maniac on 07-06-2008 04:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Majestic Tree H
Has any of the Programs Yielded a Higher Quality of Pups Per litter ?? Or Just Quality.. The Percentage Is Still The Same >>

THE PERCENTAGE IS STILL THE SAME. HE WAS SUPPER STAKE FOR NINE YEARS.FIRST YEAR WAS $850 AFTER $600 ADD THAT UP AND I BET I DIDNT MAKE BUT $600 ON STUD FEES . PEOPLES ALWAYS WANTING TO BREED FOR A PUP. THE NEXT TIME THEY GO AND BREED TO ANOTHER STUD DOG AND PAY THE STUD FEE. I DIDNT MAKE ANY MONEY THE OWNER OF THE FEMALE DID.

Posted by Majestic Tree H on 07-06-2008 05:07 PM:

The Programs Are Cheeping the Greatness of the Trully Top Reproducing Hounds, worthy of Reproduction.

But its a BIG GREEN Monster now that can't be stoped but I believe it can be Slowed down !!!
If not The Precentage Of Reproduction in the next 2 years is Going to be Many X Fold.

Shoot Maybe next year all Studs Will be on Wheels !! Door to Door and Free or maybe they'l be paying for the right to breed to a female.. ?? I see stud owners Begging for Females to breed too now..

Posted by josh on 07-06-2008 05:14 PM:

Free stud fees, and give away pups...Tell me again how this is $$$ driven?

The greedy ones are easy to spot, they make posts complaining about the greed of others and how they cant make $$ on the pups they raise...

Posted by Maniac on 07-06-2008 05:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Majestic Tree H
The Programs Are Cheeping the Greatness of the Trully Top Reproducing Hounds, worthy of Reproduction.

But its a BIG GREEN Monster now that can't be stoped but I believe it can be Slowed down !!!
If not The Precentage Of Reproduction in the next 2 years is Going to be Many X Fold.

Shoot Maybe next year all Studs Will be on Wheels !! Door to Door and Free or maybe they'l be paying for the right to breed to a female.. ?? I see stud owners Begging for Females to breed too now..

I WILL AGREE PEOPLE BEGGING OTHER PEOPLE TO BRRED TO THERE FEMALES. THE GUY THAT RUNS THE PUPY FACTORY IS ALWAYS TRYING TO (CUT) OTHER STUD DOGS OWNERS THROTES. BUT NONE OF THE STUD DOGS HE IS AVERTISEING. IS NOT REPRODUCEING THAT WELL. HE JUST KNOWS HOW TO (BLOW). AND PEOPLE ARE ALL READY LEARNING HIM. HE IS JUST A JELOUS STUD OWNER. HERE TWO YEARS AGO HE WAS GOING AROUND TELLING EVER BODY THAT MY DOG COULDNT REPRODUCE PUPS ANY MORE. HE COULDNT STAND IT THAT PEOPLE WAS BREEDING TO MY DOG. AND MY HOUND HAS PROVED HE IS A REPRODUCER.

Posted by on 07-06-2008 05:32 PM:

Wow!!! Is the sky falling in too???? I don't see any of these problems anymore with the Perf Program than I saw before the program. For some, the glass is always half empty.

Posted by Justin Smith on 07-06-2008 05:34 PM:

Steve , what is wrong with anyone in America wanting to put their kennel or stud on the map ?

If nobody wanted their pups , how do you think they ever get 100 registered pups out of their yard ?

You want to tell us how you are right and others are wrong ..... but that's just talk .... let's see your walk !!

$450 for crossed up litters from unproven parents ? Hmmmm .....

That fact is , you can't even give away pups that aren't in a program ... NOT being in the program will get more pups culled than being in one .

A guy with a good female does in fact hold the cards and I'd love to see more stud owners have to pay to breed to gyps likes that .... it sure tells you something about the females most are backing up to these studs .

Posted by Majestic Tree H on 07-06-2008 06:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Justin Smith
Steve , what is wrong with anyone in America wanting to put their kennel or stud on the map ?

If nobody wanted their pups , how do you think they ever get 100 registered pups out of their yard ?

You want to tell us how you are right and others are wrong ..... but that's just talk .... let's see your walk !!

$450 for crossed up litters from unproven parents ? Hmmmm .....

That fact is , you can't even give away pups that aren't in a program ... NOT being in the program will get more pups culled than being in one .

A guy with a good female does in fact hold the cards and I'd love to see more stud owners have to pay to breed to gyps likes that .... it sure tells you something about the females most are backing up to these studs .

Justin I'am just see a trend and Showing facts of whats Happening ..

And yes fokes are getting Leary of Putting even another $100 into a Program pup much more $150 worth of Feed just to find out your Still only getting a 20% Chance .. 20% Litters

This Is Performance ??

Hey I have No horses in this race ! And my sales for sure arn't hurting from this Mass Production of Pups.

I'am only Concerned for the Breeds.. Hey I love them all, I don't care what color they are as long as their the Best that can be produce .. Not the Most that can be Produced.. Well their are some Org.s that have some Mitey Big Piggy Banks and their are fokes that have some big $ invested their..

Well Maybe its just the Ad's .. I mean when A fellow has 4 14 mo. old Pups selling them for $200.. all SS and all that junk .. And then he is threating to put then in the Ground if their not sold..

Just maybe the Ad's need to be Cleaned Up

Posted by Tim Green on 07-06-2008 07:30 PM:

Steve,
You had replied to an ad that I posted a week or so ago in regards to looking for a couple of females to breed and you commented that I had offered Battle for free and made reference that he is SS and Performanced. You said it was a poor incentive. I deleted it and reworded it because I thought maybe I did not clarify what my intent was. I will start by saying any person that goes to UKC hunt is crazy not to hunt a performance pup, especially if the pup is a decent hound because you have an opportunity to get a little back for your hard work of training. I will never in the rest of my life make enough money to cover what I have spent on coon hunting, so I am not going to try, but if I might get enough to buy one more bag of dog food or buy one gallon of gas...who knows.. I enjoy raising pups and will continue to do so. I get more pride out of hearing about my pups success. Just today I got an email from a young teenager informing me that her Battle pup won CH male at the Wisconsin Youth hunt. She was extremely happy. That may not sound like a lot to most, but to her it was like winning the world hunt. If it takes 100 pups to produce that one little bit of happiness, it was worth it. The funny thing is....that pup was free to her. It is a Super Staked and a Performance pup.

Battle will be 7 in Aug, I have had him since he was 14 months old and I have 83 pups out of him of which came from my personal females or my partners females over the years. I recently bred only the 2nd female that I have not owned. I make sure that my personal females have traits that I believe can better our breed, or I would not breed them. Battle may never produce enough NTCH or GRNTCH as most of those pups went to pleasure hunters, but at least I will have enough to make him eligible if he does. After your post, I called a guy that bought a female from me once and I am breeding her again and I just bought an X jr female to breed. Between these two, I think I will have what I set out for and after that I will only raise a few to fool with if Battle lives long enough.

I am in the Air Force, and have been for over 18 Years. I am getting ready to go to the desert again for 1 year and then headed to Alaska for 3 years after that. My coon hunting is getting ready to stop for at least 5 years. Battle is over at Jeff's house for awhile and then he will probably go back to Ray's in Wisconsin. It is a shame that he will not breed more females, but I really don't care. John Wick told me at Walker Days in April that I needed to do something with Battle because he could see intellegence in him that needed to be passed on.

I agree the mass producing pups is bad because so many do not get a chance. Honestly, this is how the big stud dog owners, and I do not consider myself one, but this is how they get a lot of pups out there and the more you have the more likely a few will show up in the big hunts and away they go......

When I am done traveling in a few months, I would like to bring Battle up to your house and go for a hunt. You commented on how nice his pedigree is, so I would like for you to see for yourself how nice of a hound he is and you tell me if he has something to offer the Walker breed.

Tim

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Posted by Majestic Tree H on 07-06-2008 07:47 PM:

Tim I told you I have nothing wrong with You or your Hound !!! My God If I had a Treeing Walker Female Worthy of Breeding I would be beat a path to Him !!! I love the way his papers look..

Please don't take this personal .. Hey your giving everyone a Chance to breed to your Male .. What could fokes ask For .. And you rewrote it Great !! .. It just a Trend in this Program ..

Posted by Tim Green on 07-06-2008 07:58 PM:

Steve,
I am not taking it personal. I agree with you 100%. If people bred more to the quality of the breed than just breeding to produce pups, the breed would be even better. Every now and then these line bred hounds need to be out crossed. This is why MOST of the the hounds in the winner circles are not all grand...They are outcrossed off of some of the nice all grand males or females and are producing some balanced ability....

I am off to Europe on Tuesday for a week but, I will shoot you an email when I get back and maybe we can go for a hunt....

Take care

Tim

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Posted by Majestic Tree H on 07-06-2008 08:03 PM:

Sounds Great Tim !! Good luck and Be Safe !!

Thank You !!

Posted by MikeO on 07-06-2008 08:14 PM:

i think the performance program is the best going in any registry.

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Posted by Justin Smith on 07-06-2008 08:19 PM:

Steve , what FACTS are you posting ? I don't see any .....

Posted by Majestic Tree H on 07-06-2008 09:26 PM:

Ah Heck Your Right !!

Posted by yadkinriver on 07-06-2008 09:50 PM:

Personally I like the performance program. Compare... another registry came out with a ss program. you could permantly register a bitch, breed her to a ss sire and sell some pups. This produced a lot of sorry pups because the bitch didn't have to prove herself and hunts could be won with circle or minus points. This promoted Treedog, Treedog, Treedog.
I like a dog that can run a track to the right tree. In ukc you can't win unless you see the meat. That takes a complete dog.
Looks like to me that the high priced stud fees should come down. If old maple milker reproduces as good as advertised the owner should get his stud fee back at the end of the year from his performance check. If he can't reproduce then charge a lot, cause thats the only way to make any money.
Hope I didn't step on too many toes, cause jmo.

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