UKC Forums - How would you score this

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Posted by jeff thomley on 05-11-2013 08:23 AM:

How would you score this

4 dog cast - dogs are all treed going into tree 3 cast members go in ahead of judge , and I don't mean just in front of him , I mean several feet ahead of him. When judge gets there they clam his dog was face barking the other dogs on the tree, he stands there and watches all dogs treeing nothing is going on . They handle dogs score tree , call time out and start walking out. One of the cast members stops and wants judge, s dog scratched for fighting , they get into it, a vote is taken , one man says he didn't c anything but votes scratched so 3-1 is the vote , they take it too master of hounds - judge said and all agree that they went into tree ahead of him clamed his dog was face barking , scored tree, called time out , then voted to scratch him. Master of hounds goes with the 3-1 vote . What do u think?this was my dog but I was not there

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Posted by berger on 05-11-2013 09:25 AM:

I wouldn't worry about it.

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Posted by longshot on 05-11-2013 01:05 PM:

Several things went wrong. The 1st thing is rule #11 was violated which says " Judge will be the first person to arrive at the tree."

When handlers get ahead of the judge , he should inform them to hold back or be scratched.. The rules say you can't leave the judge without permission to do so.

When the judge got to the tree and they vote 3 to 1 to scratch for fighting , the judge should just say . " ok , but we're all going home early because you guys all walked ahead of me".

Sounds like a mess.

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Posted by SEKY Coonhunter on 05-11-2013 01:15 PM:

Everything questioned must be settled the second the situation arises. Period.

As for the judge, unless he told them to stop, he can't scratch the cast for leaving the cast, or running into the tree ahead of the judge. Unless he tells them to stop and wait, and for some reason they refuse.

As far as the scratching the dog.....you question it and score it the second that question arises and you do NOTHING else in between until the situation is settled. If they questioned it, then shined the tree, or then walked away, then they no longer have a question!

Looks like they questioned it, then brought it up for a vote after the fact, during a time out. If I'm right in my circumstances, they had nothing to scratch anyone on.

Just my opinion.

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Posted by Backswamp Fred on 05-11-2013 01:36 PM:

Well so far we all agree the judge should have said, for them wait then if they didnt SCRATCH, Second You have to judge each thing as they come. Third face barking no one likes it but its not scratch able unless it makes a dog leave the tree. Otherwise nothing you can do just keep hunting.

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Posted by Charles Pullen on 05-11-2013 01:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by SEKY Coonhunter
Everything questioned must be settled the second the situation arises. Period.

As for the judge, unless he told them to stop, he can't scratch the cast for leaving the cast, or running into the tree ahead of the judge. Unless he tells them to stop and wait, and for some reason they refuse.

As far as the scratching the dog.....you question it and score it the second that question arises and you do NOTHING else in between until the situation is settled. If they questioned it, then shined the tree, or then walked away, then they no longer have a question!

Looks like they questioned it, then brought it up for a vote after the fact, during a time out. If I'm right in my circumstances, they had nothing to scratch anyone on.

Just my opinion.

You're 100 % right !!!! They saw a problem and overlook it , they scored that dog and then they wanted to scratch him . Why not scratch him before the shine time starts ? Then the judge , he wants to scratch them for something that happened a 1/2 hr earlier ? You got to question someting right when it happens !!!!

Posted by skidiver on 05-11-2013 02:20 PM:

MOH should have thrown the card out....

Posted by jculler8 on 05-11-2013 02:58 PM:

Re: How would you score this

quote:
Originally posted by jeff thomley
4 dog cast - dogs are all treed going into tree 3 cast members go in ahead of judge , and I don't mean just in front of him , I mean several feet ahead of him. When judge gets there they clam his dog was face barking the other dogs on the tree, he stands there and watches all dogs treeing nothing is going on . They handle dogs score tree , call time out and start walking out. One of the cast members stops and wants judge, s dog scratched for fighting , they get into it, a vote is taken , one man says he didn't c anything but votes scratched so 3-1 is the vote , they take it too master of hounds - judge said and all agree that they went into tree ahead of him clamed his dog was face barking , scored tree, called time out , then voted to scratch him. Master of hounds goes with the 3-1 vote . What do u think?this was my dog but I was not there

You need to study your rules!

1. Judge should arrive at all trees FIRST!

2. Dogs cannot be scratched for aggressive behavior only.

3. All voting situations need to be voted on at the time the situation happens and is scored... Not 5-10 min after the fact.

4. Throw the card out and MOH should give these boys a good rules explanation.

5. My best advice is to buy an advisor and do some reading.

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Posted by Bill(Chew) on 05-11-2013 03:23 PM:

This is why I usually tell the cast members when I'm judging, "If you beat me to the tree you can beat me to the truck."

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Posted by JiM on 05-11-2013 03:25 PM:

Bottom line is the judge made his bed and the cast made him lay in it.
The judge lost control of his cast if he ever had it to begin with. That is on him. The MOH has 3 cast members saying a dog needs scratched for fighting and the judge saying no, his dog shouldn't be scratch while admitting he was the last one to the tree. All the other issues aside, most MOH's are gonna go with the 3 person majority and send them back out with 3 dogs. The judge did a very poor job of managing his cast and this is what it got him. Learn from it and move on.

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Posted by jeff thomley on 05-11-2013 03:37 PM:

I never seen a dog scratched for face barking , but either way he has a new title to add to his many Scratched for fighting !!

Posted by everett on 05-11-2013 04:43 PM:

all answers are wrong

this is an example of how out of wack hunters across the board are with the rules. here is the facts.

The Advisor, official interpretation of ukc nite hunt rules and policies.

judging, there are only 3 situations that a cast vote is called, the judge scores ALL others, those three are, scoring tree,s, (coon seen or not) calling time out,and returning to previously scored tree,s without declaring dogs treed. page 80 Rule chapter 10 3rd paragraph.

And yes a dog can be scratched for aggressive behavior if that behavior is interfering with another dog, or is determined by the judge only that the dog is attempting to fight.

running into the tree before the judge, should have been scratched, it is not the judges responsibility to teach you the rules, he does not have to tell you to not go in to a tree before him, it is your responsibility to know the rules when you enter, Does the judge have to tell you when to tree your dog? That rule is well known common knowledge, and if three handlers are running in to tree you can bet they knew better. They are scratched, the Master of hounds needs to get him The Advisor book and study it...Gerald/ MH/BSJ

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Posted by runnin rebels on 05-11-2013 05:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by SEKY Coonhunter
Everything questioned must be settled the second the situation arises. Period.

As for the judge, unless he told them to stop, he can't scratch the cast for leaving the cast, or running into the tree ahead of the judge. Unless he tells them to stop and wait, and for some reason they refuse.

As far as the scratching the dog.....you question it and score it the second that question arises and you do NOTHING else in between until the situation is settled. If they questioned it, then shined the tree, or then walked away, then they no longer have a question!

Looks like they questioned it, then brought it up for a vote after the fact, during a time out. If I'm right in my circumstances, they had nothing to scratch anyone on.

Just my opinion.

Yeah what a joke. Judge does not have to yell me first! Me first! On the way to every tree!

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Posted by Ky Show Girl on 05-11-2013 05:42 PM:

if everybody is in a single line running i wonder how many times the 3rd,4th guy see what going on dodging limbs etc?

Posted by GA DAWG on 05-11-2013 05:51 PM:

Id have scratched the other 3 and me an ol face barker would have went back and got a non hunting judge.

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Posted by JiM on 05-11-2013 05:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ky Show Girl
if everybody is in a single line running i wonder how many times the 3rd,4th guy see what going on dodging limbs etc?

In a single line running....LOL.....where did you get that?
If they're gonna let you make up your own facts to support your side of the story, then I definitely want you on my side.

Posted by jeff thomley on 05-11-2013 06:21 PM:

I just talked to the master of hounds and he just said there was nothing he could do about it - he heard all the stories of the 4 men all are exactly as I have posted but he had a 3-1 vote and had to go with the majority . Keep in mind one of the 3 said he didn't c anything but his vote was scratch !

Posted by GA DAWG on 05-11-2013 06:25 PM:

The MOH should KNOW you can't scratch a dog for face barking. So he could of over turned it. I hate face barking as much as anybody but that's how it is!

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Posted by Jammer2122 on 05-11-2013 06:50 PM:

Think about it

Must have been a reason they wanted to get there before the judge. Face barking is aggressive behavior ... same as if I was yelling in your face....Which means attempting to fight..

Posted by GA DAWG on 05-11-2013 07:04 PM:

You can't scratch a dog for face barking period!

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Posted by jeff thomley on 05-11-2013 07:13 PM:

Thanks for everyone ,s opinion , I have hunted Ike in hunts for a long time have seen other dogs eat him alive on trees . He is a akc ch, Pkc ch dual grand , ark state ch hasn't had any trouble , but now I will just put him up and find a new dog to hunt. I wasn't there and appearantly can't do nothing about it .

Posted by bluetick250 on 05-11-2013 07:16 PM:

judge should of scratched cast for going in before him if he has slower you are suppose to go with slowest cast member

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Posted by john Duemmer on 05-11-2013 07:52 PM:

If 3 guys all went in ahead of the judge its pretty easy to guess why, iv done it my self when i have heard crap goin on at the tree. Scratch me if ya like ,its still better than a nice big vet bill.

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Posted by ChimesFlash on 05-11-2013 10:45 PM:

I thought the judge had to tell you to handle your dogs. I never walk into a tree till the judge tells me to handle my dog.

Posted by JiM on 05-11-2013 11:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by bluetick250
judge should of scratched cast for going in before him if he has slower you are suppose to go with slowest cast member

I see several have made this comment, the judge should scratch them for going in ahead. But in reading the original post, there is nothing stated that indicates the judge made any effort at all to maintain the proper order on this cast. The person asking about this situation makes no mention of telling the cast to stay behind the judge and no mention of scratching anyone because of it.
The judge is responsible for controlling his cast, this judge apparently didn't so he is just as at fault as any of the handlers.
I always feel like scratching a cast member (as opposed to scratching a dog) is a last resort sort of thing. If there is any way to avoid it, I sure will. Any judge that makes it a habit of scratching everyone who ever walks ahead of him is looking at a very unpleasant future in this sport. Any good judge will make certain basic rules known right up front before the first dog is unsnapped. Spectators don't shine, nobody goes into the tree ahead of the judge, etc.

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