UKC Forums - Something to think about

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Posted by Tim Toler on 03-02-2013 03:33 PM:

Something to think about

As I set here this morning reading some post about the barred list and the all grands and so forth... It got me thinking... I am still rather new to this sport, but wonder how many people has quit comp. hunting because of getting cheated, think they have been cheated.

Then on the other hand makes me think about this... with the low attendance at the local clubs becoming more and more of a problem... What does everyone think about UKC and the local clubs trying to do some proactive things to maybe get some people back into comp hunting? Now I know economy has alot to do with it also but just thinking outside of the box..

Something I would love to see happen, and I for one would take part in to help myself and to help the comp. world, Local clubs start having a rules meeting every so often... to discuss the rules and situations that everyone has experienced while in a hunt... and maybe to the point that if you haven't attended so many of these meetings or something you can't be a judge... a list of names sent into UKC from each meeting and then UKC sends a card stating that you qualify as a judge...

Do you think this could or would help with maybe getting some of the honest people back into comp. hunting?

My thought here is if everyone is on the same page with rules would be harder to get cheated or feel like you have been cheated...

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Posted by walkerdog1 on 03-02-2013 03:46 PM:

I thank thats a good idea Tim

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Posted by smartin0022 on 03-02-2013 03:48 PM:

Edited see below

Posted by smartin0022 on 03-02-2013 03:51 PM:

Mr.,
I think that is a great idea to have a qualified judge but who has the time I work 70-84 hrs a week. U think maybe it might backfire because all the guys who are judging their own hounds into nite champion and grand night champion titles would get their qualifications? You can bet your bottom dollar they would take this rule and bend it to their advantage. Prolly end up losing more people's interest in the sport in the long run.its a double edge sword.
How about if they make it a rule that at least one first place wins has to come from a non hunting judge in order to receive grand nite champion! I'm sure ill get strung up and fire lined for my post on this one...

Posted by Tim Toler on 03-02-2013 04:05 PM:

Just thinking that if I was more comfortable with the rules then I will feel more confident with speaking up during the hunt and placing questions on the card... to the point to where if you drew out with me and you was the judge and we were somewhat local to each other where we knew of each other then you would think twice about trying to pull the wool over my eyes... because you know that I know the rules and will question you about them... that is what I am looking at...

and I do agree with you that those people would be the ones that would attend those meetings and so forth... but it would also encourage the others to make it when you can...

I am a high school basktball coach and all coaches and officials have to attend a meeting before the season starts to cover rules and any changes that has taken place so that "everyone is on the same page"... there is where I think the biggest problem lies... not everyone is on the same page with the rules.

Posted by Tim Toler on 03-02-2013 04:15 PM:

something just dawned on me... yes it is a double edge sword... and it may hurt attendance some at first at the local clubs... but once everyone seen that UKC and the local clubs is trying to be proactive in taking care of some of this don't you think the people would start to return that may not have been there for years??

I think so... I think people is setting reading this board wanting to hunt UKC but says... "I will not hunt UKC until something is done to make this a more level playing ground for all not just the guy that holds the pencil"

Now you could say... "read your rule book and figure it out for yourself" and I agree with that to a degree... but then I read a rule and take it to say one thing... you take it to mean something else... therefore a problem... but if we are in a meeting of several and discuss it and if there is still questions then contact UKC for an "official" answer.. Then UKC could use that to post it here or to print it in CB... like the most popular question each month brought to them from the meetings... I know there is something similar but it is time to raise the bar...

I thought about this last night on my way in from a hunt... you know if UKC wants to be the #1 coondog registery it is time to step to the plate and be more proactice because from what I am seeing with somethings... I think UKC has become somewhat relaxed with their standing and is loosing ground to some others... I like UKC but do think it has to be a work in progress at all times... Like I said I am thinking outside the box... I have several thoughts and some are probably crazy... but what is wrong with kicking them around

Posted by JiM on 03-02-2013 04:25 PM:

There are various reasons why the hunts are down but cheating and such is not much of that reason. The fact is many try the sport and quickly realize they just don't have the competitive constitution to enjoy it. Some can't take the loosing. Some simply aren't tough enough and that's right, this ain't no sport for pussies. That is not to say that anyone who doesn't enjoy comp hunting is a pussy, not in the least but if that person isn't thick skinned enough , they won't stay. But I absolutely believe that the guy or gal who quits because of the cheating issue, no matter what it is, would never had stayed long term anyway. They are the ones who just aren't cut out for it. You have to accept right up front that this sport, like EVERY other sport out there, is not for everyone.

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Posted by Tim Toler on 03-02-2013 04:36 PM:

Jim,

I am sorry but I disagree with you... because what you are saying is basically the bully will win in every hunt.. and that isn't what this is about... question for you... do you like hunting in the hunts? If the answer is yes... then don't you feel that to keep it alive that there are some issues needs addressed? I personally can tell you that I am not a p****... and may get my a@@ kicked... but your way of thinking is of a bully that just says I am going to win by running over you and I know you will not say anything because you feel inferior to me because you are not as experienced as me and afraid to question me...

I am trying to think of ways to makes hunts better... with what you have said it seems that you want to keep people out of the hunts so it is easier for you to win... less people less dogs to compete against...

I know you are well respected by many on this site and I to look for what you have to say on certain topics but I took it that you were calling me a p**** because I have commented on a couple posts trying to brainstorm on how to make what we do better... I enjoy it and will be around for a long time now as long as my health and lifestyle allows it... but I do promise you one thing... I will ALWAYS compete in a cast with honesty and sportmanship... I will not bully someone or try and openly cheat someone..

Posted by smartin0022 on 03-02-2013 06:14 PM:

I think it's a good idea to know the rules. I have also seen alot of things in my short life that I wouldn't let happen again and each time it was because of my lack of knowledge of the rules. I didn't get cheated I got out handled. I call my dog for what he does everytime right or wrong. I have used rules to my advantage. Knowing the rules and how to manipulate them is referred to as cheating but I consider it smart handling. It's a competition I enter to win if I can win within the rules I will. If I lose within the rules then that's just how it goes it is what it is. I been beat by rules, I been beat by dog power, I been bet by nerves, temper, attitude, honesty, integrity, all of these beatings helped me win the hunts I have won and placed in. I think your ideas are good but I also think they have negative effects as well as positive. But I wouldn't mind seeing it change if it would better our sport. Just keep reading the back of that score card is my advice. When you get out handled remember why next time you enter and given the chance use that knowledge to your advantage.

Posted by john Duemmer on 03-02-2013 06:16 PM:

We all hear the stories about folks getting cheated, or feeling as if they have been cheated at a hunt. In the vast majority of those cases those competitors were a victim of their own lack of knowledge. They simply didnt understand why a particular situation was handled by the judge the way it was, and instead of questioning the call or asking for an explanation they walk away feeling cheated.
As time goes by a larger and larger percentage of UKC. competitors have access to this board and i think that provides UKC. with an opportunity to help educate competitors in an annonumus way that could help clear up questions that left unanswered cause a guy to feel that he got cheated.
By adding a section to the board for UKC. rule discussion and questions a UKC. representitive could explain the correct rule to be used in a given situation and how it should be applied.
My experience is that rule discussions at the clubhouse often only perpetuate misconception of a particular rule but coming straight from a UKC. representitive would provide a beginning hunter or a MOH. with a concrete way to deal with the questions that make us all scratch our heads in the woods on Sat. night.

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Posted by Tim Toler on 03-02-2013 06:33 PM:

Shayne and John,

I agree that there is up sides and down sides to any type of change or adjustments and all I was doing is seeing what others thought about coming up with a way to get clarifications and discussions about the rules and so forth.

John what you're saying is exactly the type of stuff I am talking about with the discussion part on the board and so forth.. I sat and listened to a conversation last night about a rule on the "back of the score card" that left alot of grey area in my opinion... something about what happens to a dog if treed after the five is up...

I do know that I have learned some of the rules by them working against me so far in my young career of comp hunting... but I also know at looking back that some rules has been used in the working manner to beat me now also... and for some that says why should I waste my money to come out and get whipped by some that knows how to turn the rules better then I do.. is the point I am trying to get at.

Posted by Cheyenne on 03-02-2013 07:45 PM:

Years ago when i first married, I could not afford to go to hunts but dug up enough change and went, did my fair share of winning too! Now that i am alot more stable financially and have had some outstanding hounds the hunts just don't appeal to me like when i was younger. I'd rather pleasure hunt and listen to the hounds and sip on a cold beer! I got a female now that has been in a very few hunts that needs 1 win to make Gr.Nt.Ch. but the competition fire is not in me like it used to be, why? I get tired of seeing people trying to win at all cost, i get tired of the cry babies, the guys that everytime they loose, they were cheated, so i decided i don't like spending money and being miserable when i can pleasure hunt and have a good time!! I know the rules, i know the grey areas in the rules, i know how to take advantage of situations, my handling skills are better than most, i have won way more cast than i ever lost but never had the desire to push on. Been offered lots of money to handle and train dogs, but i'm not gonna commit to something unless i give it my all and i'm not, l like to play too much golf in the summer! I like messing with pups, but once they get consistant i loose interest! The one thing you can be sure of when i pull into a hunt i'm ready to win, don't mean i will but i'm not hoping to win!

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Posted by headless01 on 03-02-2013 07:50 PM:

Posted by Jordan120 on 03-02-2013 07:55 PM:

Tim that is a great idea and people dot qualify as a judge an they put down for judge then they can't do it. And if a whole cast doesn't have a qualify judge then send a qualify judge with them.

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Posted by BIGOAK on 03-02-2013 08:18 PM:

It just comes down to everybody needing to be a sportsman, if you don't know the rules somebody in the cast should speak up and help out instead of using the rules to their advantage. I've probably been in a hundred more casts than everyone I drew last night at the Putnam co classic but we all worked together and the better dog won the cast, and as bad as I hate to admit it, it was a blue dog !!!

Posted by Larry Atherton on 03-02-2013 08:24 PM:

O.K. let me see if I get this right. A judge needs to be quailified first. Hmmm, that will kill the hunts faster.

As a MOH, I can tell you that assigning judges is something I take serious, but with the low numbers (mainly due to the weather right now) it can be a chore to choosing judges and guides.

If you want to learn the rules better, Allen posts old Bloodline articles regarding rule interpretations right here on their web site.

Simply hi-light them hit control C, and then paste it on a blank word document by hitting control V. Now create a folder so you can go over them to your hearts desire.

Fact is UKC provides several opportunities for us to learn the rules now.

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Posted by Tim Toler on 03-02-2013 09:55 PM:

Let me say that I set around from time to time thinking and pondering about things and thought I would just throw this out there... I know I haven't been around that long... and alot of the things that I may have run across my mind may have already been tried or some form of it that I am not aware of and if so I apologize.

Josh, I agree with you totally about the sportsman part.

I think about my experiences in other sports and hobbies and how things are done there... Now let me be the first to say that you are never going to stop people from saying that they have gotten cheated or that something was fixed... but I was just thinking that if somehow we all could help in changing how people looks and thinks about the hunts it would help.

Here is another thought.. using the thought of the qualified judge... (again all of this is just thinking out loud or outside the box so to speak) If you are qualified judge and get selected to judge a cast your entry fee is free. Now there is also something in it for the person judging to make sure they get qualified... since the point was made that people would have a hard time attending meetings or such... you have to take and pass a written test to obtain the qualified judge status.

I know that people are going to say that will never fly because of UKC and the club loosing money on that entry and you are on that entry but if things get better and more people start attending the hunts you will in the long run make more money per hunt.

Just to clarify something I didn't start this thread as a means of crying, complaining or anything else except to see what others opinions would be as a way to curve the chance of people being able to say that they have been cheated out of a cast win or so forth..

something just dawned on me... seems that the thought of the qualified judge is a crazy idea from most.. so I have a question... then why can't I judge the next bench show? or be MOH?
Because I haven't taken a test or "been qualified" as a bench show judge or MOH... and how does one do that? take a test then apprentice under someone for an x number of hunts... but anyone can come into a hunt and put themselves up to be a judge for a hunt... hmmmm that one I don't understand..

Posted by prostockpat on 03-03-2013 12:34 AM:

i would...

like to see someone do a study.
on how many times the judge ,wins their cast !!!!
call it "the power of the pencil" study.
lmao!!

non-hunting judges{lol} would be ok IF they were not from that club to help eliminate "buddy system" going.

ukc needs to take complaints SERIOUSLY!!
but.....if they did the banned list would require another magazine!!
then they'd lose $$${banned hunters can"t hunt}

got cheated in my 1st hunt{i was 15}everybody found out at club{even the all mighty moh} but nothing happened!!{buddies!!!}
i have never went back{20 min from my house}almost 30yrs later!!

bottom line: cheating the youth,you lose your future!!

Posted by Tim Toler on 03-03-2013 01:44 AM:

Pat,
The situation you share is something like I am talking about... but the more I think about this today and read what some others has said... I am coming to think that everyone may be correct... there is no answer because bottom line when out in the woods it comes down to a persons morals and character and basically I know I can go home at night put my dog up, go in and lay down and sleep a good nights sleep knowing that I haven't knowing wronged anyone.

I have always been told that I put to much trust in people... I guess that is why I get burnt alot haha..

Posted by Jordan120 on 03-03-2013 01:46 AM:

It's pitiful that people would cheat a youth to win. When the youth is the future of the sport.

Posted by Virgil on 03-03-2013 02:22 AM:

The problem with the sport of competition hunting as I see it comes down to the fact that too many people place winning above all else. They will do whatever it takes to win at the expense of morality or sportsmanship.

This sport started out as a sport for the dogs to compete and a way to determine the best hounds. But with all the money in it now that has went to the way side. Too many hunters care more about getting their picture in a magazine or putting a title on a dog.

And I will admit that not everyone is like that but it only takes one of those guys on a cast to make it a rough night for everyone else. These guys more often than not know the rule book very well and will try to lawyer their way into a win on some technicality rather than letting the dogs sort it out. Put one of those guys in a cast with some young or inexperienced competition hunters and it turns people away from the sport.

This sport should be about the dogs but more often than not the handlers try to make it about themselves.

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Posted by mike thomason on 03-03-2013 02:43 AM:

Well said Virgil well said.

Posted by Tim Toler on 03-03-2013 02:46 AM:

Virgil that is very well said... and what you have said is exactly the point I was making... I myself have been comp hunting less then a year now and still probably only been in ole... couple dozen casts total... so when I get drawn out with people they know that... but I am learning and starting to question and standing up more...

I hunted a cast in the other KC one night and they told me that it was time for me to get my feet wet with judging... after I told them no several times that I didn't know the rules well enough to judge and wasn't comfortable with judging... I had two other cast members tell me ole just do it we all will help you and we all have hunted together and have always discussed everything.. so I excepted the job... well now looking back I know why they did it... we get to the woods and their was a couple situations come up and when I said ok I don't have a clue what do we do boys? the comment was made why ask us you are the judge... well carma had her way that night... haha... me and my Rock dog was down going into the last drop.. and guess what... we took first and first and had the meat... even after the guide made a comment that we could either go down to A.. where I know you will hit a coon... or we can go to B where I doubt you will hit anything... the same two guys that was suppose to help me with the judging jumped real quick on the drop where there would be nothing... well it back fired haha.. but I lost a lot of respect for those two guys that night... and have my guard up for them now..

and it was all over winning 60 bucks that night... so I agree Virgil that it is more about the person and not the dog in some casts not all of them but some..

Posted by perry co cooner on 03-03-2013 02:49 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Atherton
O.K. let me see if I get this right. A judge needs to be quailified first. Hmmm, that will kill the hunts faster.

As a MOH, I can tell you that assigning judges is something I take serious, but with the low numbers (mainly due to the weather right now) it can be a chore to choosing judges and guides.

If you want to learn the rules better, Allen posts old Bloodline articles regarding rule interpretations right here on their web site.

Simply hi-light them hit control C, and then paste it on a blank word document by hitting control V. Now create a folder so you can go over them to your hearts desire.

Fact is UKC provides several opportunities for us to learn the rules now.

This is true however it seems like a lot of people interpret the rules differently as is often seen on "rules questions" on this very message board. Something like this could put a lot more people on the same page. Most people just naturally don't like change in things they are used to and comfortable with even when the change may be better in the long run.

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Posted by perry co cooner on 03-03-2013 03:00 AM:

I believe competition hunts were originally started to see what dog was the best NOT so that some could learn the rules so thoroughly that they could use them to their benefit to possibly beat a better dog. On a cast everyone that's run coondogs for any length of time knows a piece of crap dog from a good dog but still there are people out there that bring a piece of junk (to local hunts I'm talking about) and want to win so badly they'll try anything to eliminate the competition and steal a win. The last cast I was a spectator on had this exact kind of guy. Always asking the judge if it sounded like a dog left the tree when it was obvious it hadn't and saying it sounds like they're fighting when it was obvious they weren't and it was always when his piece of crap wasn't involved or around. Thank god the judge was good and and told him to knock it off after a short time. It was a miserable cast until the judge put his foot down.

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