UKC Forums - Genetic and hereditary advances.

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Posted by Tailkicker on 10-06-2010 10:57 PM:

Genetic and hereditary advances.

Should Semen be used from a dead stud?

My answer is NO.

Why? If the stud had such an INFLUENCE and IMPACT on the breed, would he not have an HEIR?

What would u say is the generation gap of our hounds. 3yrs, 4yrs, 5yrs. If we use 4yrs for a hound to prove itself worthy of a coondog and worthy of reproducing. Every 8 years we should see hounds that are producing there grandparents likeness.

8 years to know that u made a good cross. Hopefully some thought and time was made to breed this hound to an optimum mate.

So when making a cross on a stud that has passed on and that the semen is over 20years old are we not stepping back several generations of selective breeding... have we not just made all that advance void. 20 years is 5 generations. basketball players 5 generations ago were not the athletes they are today... look at the men in college SPORTS and heading to the pros.. many more today than yesteryear are "offspring" of the greats of the game. The game hasnt even been 5 generations old. Lets look at livestock and the 'advances' made in cattle and hogs and race horses. They would never think about going back 5 generations to breed to a popular stud.

Look at the numbers: the studs today are producing at a higher efficancy than those of yesteryear.

(Oh, wait... better selection of females today than that of 20 years ago. Exactly proving my point)

If a stud has over a 1000 offspring... there is bound to be a HEIR. With proper studying and research... 100 offspring.

It would make sense to me for UKC to not allow crosses that are degenerative (stepping backwards) to the breeds.

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Posted by Chiggers on 10-06-2010 11:20 PM:

Re: Genetic and hereditary advances.

quote:
Originally posted by Tailkicker
Should Semen be used from a dead stud?

My answer is NO.

Why? If the stud had such an INFLUENCE and IMPACT on the breed, would he not have an HEIR?

What would u say is the generation gap of our hounds. 3yrs, 4yrs, 5yrs. If we use 4yrs for a hound to prove itself worthy of a coondog and worthy of reproducing. Every 8 years we should see hounds that are producing there grandparents likeness.

8 years to know that u made a good cross. Hopefully some thought and time was made to breed this hound to an optimum mate.

So when making a cross on a stud that has passed on and that the semen is over 20years old are we not stepping back several generations of selective breeding... have we not just made all that advance void. 20 years is 5 generations. basketball players 5 generations ago were not the athletes they are today... look at the men in college basketball and heeading to the pros.. most are "offspring" of the greats of the game. The game hasnt even been 5 generations old. Lets look at livestock and the 'advances' made in cattle and hogs and race horses. They would never think about going back 5 generations to breed to a popular stud.

Look at the numbers: the studs today are producing at a higher efficancy than those of yesteryear.

(Oh, wait... better selection of females today than that of 20 years ago. Exactly proving my point)

If a stud has over a 1000 offspring... there is bound to be a HEIR. With proper studying and research... 100 offspring.

It would make sense to me for UKC to not allow crosses that are degenerative (stepping backwards) to the breeds.

Name me some of the Players in last years first round draft that had Parents thats Played Before them, the number 1 pick's Father is in Prison. In 1973 Secretariat Broke the Record in the Kentucky Derby,I watched him do it, it still stands today. A person may Look for Years before he finds a Dog that throws dogs that suits him, Freeze the Semen and he has it when he needs it.

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Posted by Riverview2 on 10-06-2010 11:27 PM:

Some people like the opportunity to breed some of the older stuff. Just because it goes back doesn't mean the breed moves backwards. I have seen great success doing this in other breeds. I totally agree that thorough research needs to be done. But depending on the crosses, reproduction ability, and numbers of pups, you might not be able to find a dog that currently has what someone is looking for. Newer isn't always better. Why not help keep some of the older bloodlines alive, and improve on some of the new. I think that is moving forward. I'm not sure how long frozen semen lasts though.

Posted by BIG$BLUES on 10-06-2010 11:59 PM:

I think going back to the well is a good thing

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Posted by Buckshot on 10-07-2010 12:49 AM:

Re: Re: Genetic and hereditary advances.

quote:
Originally posted by Chiggers
Name me some of the Players in last years first round draft that had Parents thats Played Before them, the number 1 pick's Father is in Prison.

Unless your referring to the NBA and not football, I think you meant last year's Heisman winner as the #1 pick was Sam Bradford.

Posted by Chiggers on 10-07-2010 12:51 AM:

Re: Re: Genetic and hereditary advances.

quote:
Originally posted by Chiggers
[B In 1973 Secretariat Broke the Record in the Kentucky Derby,I watched him do it, it still stands today. [/B]

O Yea, and the Race Horse industry does Not use Frozen Semen, You have to have a Live Breeding to Sire A Foal, but I remember Breeding a Cow to Frozen semen at Least 30 Years Ago, the truck pulled in looked like a ice cream truck, he had a folder of about 50 Grand Ch Bulls to pick from, my Dad was half shot and let me pick, I picked a Big Charlais 'sp' The Calve was to big and killed the cow at birth but the calve lived, I raised it on a bottle, it got to 1500 lbs

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 10-07-2010 12:53 AM:

I think with every cross the genes get mixed in differant directions. The old dog is the only one that has that mixture and if that is what your bitch needs to be mixed with to improve her offspring it doesn't matter if he is 100 years old or been dead that long you better breed to it. You don't improve the genes. You improve the pool after a while the genes get mixed to much and you need to go back to were they orriginated. That is why so many line breed. To not loose the genes. If you run out of red blood cells you need a transfusion. I am not a blood man but that is how I beleive it works.

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Posted by Chiggers on 10-07-2010 12:55 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Genetic and hereditary advances.

quote:
Originally posted by Buckshot
Unless your referring to the NBA and not football, I think you meant last year's Heisman winner as the #1 pick was Sam Bradford.

I was talking Basketball but football will do, but did Sam Bradfords dad play Pro Football? John Wall out of Ky was No. 1 pick in Basketball.

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Posted by thebigcat454545 on 10-07-2010 01:05 AM:

Re: Genetic and hereditary advances.

quote:
Originally posted by Tailkicker
Should Semen be used from a dead stud?

My answer is NO.

Why? If the stud had such an INFLUENCE and IMPACT on the breed, would he not have an HEIR?

What would u say is the generation gap of our hounds. 3yrs, 4yrs, 5yrs. If we use 4yrs for a hound to prove itself worthy of a coondog and worthy of reproducing. Every 8 years we should see hounds that are producing there grandparents likeness.

8 years to know that u made a good cross. Hopefully some thought and time was made to breed this hound to an optimum mate.

So when making a cross on a stud that has passed on and that the semen is over 20years old are we not stepping back several generations of selective breeding... have we not just made all that advance void. 20 years is 5 generations. basketball players 5 generations ago were not the athletes they are today... look at the men in college basketball and heeading to the pros.. most are "offspring" of the greats of the game. The game hasnt even been 5 generations old. Lets look at livestock and the 'advances' made in cattle and hogs and race horses. They would never think about going back 5 generations to breed to a popular stud.

Look at the numbers: the studs today are producing at a higher efficancy than those of yesteryear.

(Oh, wait... better selection of females today than that of 20 years ago. Exactly proving my point)

If a stud has over a 1000 offspring... there is bound to be a HEIR. With proper studying and research... 100 offspring.

It would make sense to me for UKC to not allow crosses that are degenerative (stepping backwards) to the breeds.

This is a good question though. i tried to ask the same thing about 2 months ago but didnt explain it as well and didnt get much of a responce. As far as father son players or players from the past v/s players of now i think players from now are bigger, faster, stronger. and that would question what we do going back to studs of the past. not saying i wouldn't though because i have.

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Posted by Chiggers on 10-07-2010 01:08 AM:

Im a Basketball fan so I really dont know about Football, but the only ones in Basketball I can think of off hand are, Michial Jordans has a son that may play College Ball, but more than likely wont play in the NBA, Patrick Uwing has a son at Indiana I Believe, he Might make a NBA Roll Player, and Rex Chapman has a son going to Arizona, might make a NBA Roll Player, but I kind of Doubt it. Duke did have a Player this year on their Nat. Title Team that his Dad played for Looserville in the 80's, Derrick Smith I believe, Really not many Father Son Players.

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Posted by Tailkicker on 10-07-2010 01:23 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Chiggers
Im a Basketball fan so I really dont know about Football, but the only ones in Basketball I can think of off hand are, Michial Jordans has a son that may play College Ball, but more than likely wont play in the NBA, Patrick Uwing has a son at Indiana I Believe, he Might make a NBA Roll Player, and Rex Chapman has a son going to Arizona, might make a NBA Roll Player, but I kind of Doubt it. Duke did have a Player this year on their Nat. Title Team that his Dad played for Looserville in the 80's, Derrick Smith I believe, Really not many Father Son Players.

jordan's son plays for Illinois
Ewings son plays for georgetown
Doc rivers son Jeremiah Rivers plays for georgetown and has a son in Highschool that is a top prospect.
Dell Curry's son Stephen Curry
Stan love's son Kevin love

Posted by Buckshot on 10-07-2010 01:26 AM:

Chiggers, John Wall's dad is dead and has been dead for years so I wasn't sure if you meant Ingram and have no idea if his dad played Pro ball since the thread said "is in prison".

Chiggers, I didn't know who top draft pick was in NBA, but know that John Wall's dad has been dead for several years and not currently "in prison" and didn't know Wall's dad played pro ball.

So I figured you meant Heisman winner as Ingram won the Heisman last year and his dad is currently in prison.

Bradford was #1 pick NFL draft - as far as I know, his dad did not play pro ball.

Posted by Chiggers on 10-07-2010 01:31 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Buckshot
Chiggers, John Wall's dad is dead and has been dead for years so I wasn't sure if you meant Ingram and have no idea if his dad played Pro ball since the thread said "is in prison". LOL I don't know

Chiggers, I didn't know who top draft pick was in NBA, but know that John Wall's dad has been dead for several years and not currently "in prison" and didn't know Wall's dad played pro ball.

So I figured you meant Heisman winner as Ingram won the Heisman last year and his dad is currently in prison.

Bradford was #1 pick NFL draft - as far as I know, his dad did not play pro ball.

I was saying that not many Fathers and Sons Played Pro's, Im pretty sure John Walls dad was in Prison, thought I read in an article about Wall not wanting to follow in his Dads Footsteps and going to Prison , but I might of Dreamed it.

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Posted by Chiggers on 10-07-2010 01:33 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Buckshot
Chiggers, John Wall's dad is dead and has been dead for years so I wasn't sure if you meant Ingram and have no idea if his dad played Pro ball since the thread said "is in prison".

Chiggers, I didn't know who top draft pick was in NBA, but know that John Wall's dad has been dead for several years and not currently "in prison" and didn't know Wall's dad played pro ball.

So I figured you meant Heisman winner as Ingram won the Heisman last year and his dad is currently in prison.

Bradford was #1 pick NFL draft - as far as I know, his dad did not play pro ball.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...0061902948.html http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/24/s...all/24wall.html Your right he is dead,and has been for 9 years, but was in Prison.

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Posted by Buckshot on 10-07-2010 01:57 AM:

LOL, I was going by your post Name me some of the Players in last years first round draft that had Parents thats Played Before them, the number 1 pick's Father is in Prison.

By that statement, that would not include Wall as his dad did not play pro ball and is dead as the statement states "in prison" as though currentlyserving but even if was worded "served time in prison" would still not include Wall since no Pro career.

Of all sports #1 draft picks and major award wins last year such as the Heisman, Ingram is the only one whose dad played Pro and is currently in prison.

Posted by Chiggers on 10-07-2010 02:05 AM:

Buckshot you and I are in agreement, I was just going off a bad memory, he had said not to use frozen semen, look at ball players, most of the good players are sons of good players, and I just dont think thats true. I think using Frozen Semen is Great, especially if a Person wants to. Any way, John Walls dad wasnt a great ball player but Id like to have another of his sons like John Wall at Ky. lol

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Posted by Tailkicker on 10-07-2010 02:17 AM:

Remind me not to use a sports analogy in future.

Posted by Buckshot on 10-07-2010 02:19 AM:

Arching Manning played and produced 2 Super Bowl winning QB's with one being a 4 time MVP -- 3rd son had to cut sports career short for medical reasons.

Interesting to see down the road if Peyton or Eli have boys and if boys play themselves.

Posted by Chiggers on 10-07-2010 02:24 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tailkicker
Remind me not to use a sports analogy in future.

O well, made good discussion. What about Hogs Cattle and Horses, Cattle uses Frozen semen a lot, dont they? Horses, I dont see that they have really advanced and they dont use frozen Semen, Hogs, I dont know if they use Frozen Semen, but I know they artificial inseminate a lot.

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Posted by Chiggers on 10-07-2010 02:27 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Buckshot
Arching Manning played and produced 2 Super Bowl winning QB's with one being a 4 time MVP -- 3rd son had to cut sports career short for medical reasons.

Interesting to see down the road if Peyton or Eli have boys and if boys play themselves.

That is a good one, you have to be your own Manning. ,how many Super Bowl winning Quarter Backs dads didnt play pro's?

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Posted by Tailkicker on 10-07-2010 02:39 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Chiggers
O well, made good discussion. What about Hogs Cattle and Horses, Cattle uses Frozen semen a lot, dont they? Horses, I dont see that they have really advanced and they dont use frozen Semen, Hogs, I dont know if they use Frozen Semen, but I know they artificial inseminate a lot.

Hogs do AI alot but most of it is fresh with in 24hrs. Cattle definitly use frozen Semen. (mainly in Milkers becuase the bulls get to big to manage, and they are a little more uncontroable than you beef breeds.)

Thoroughbreds No... done a little in the others breeds.

Of course these species are not being breed for whats between the ears. Only muscleing and structure... look how easy it is to breed a GRAND SHOW CHAMPION compared to Nite Champion... so many other factors are involved. So the advancing of these ability traits are much more difficult. Everyone does want different qualities in a hound.. no STANDARD.

Posted by Larry Atherton on 10-07-2010 02:41 AM:

I am not going to get into the sports, but stick to the dogs.

Sometimes as a line takes various turns it goes in a new direction. That is a good reason why having frozen semen can be a benefit.

It only takes one bad cross to return back to zero.

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Posted by Chiggers on 10-07-2010 02:54 AM:

In a nutshell for me, life is too short, takes to long to find a dog that reproduces dogs I like, others may be good dogs and someone else may like them better, but its what suits you and when I find one that reproduces dogs that suit me, Im collecting him. lol. Plus its a lot of work finding new ones. There may be a 100 more out there, but who has time to go check them out?

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Posted by GRAVEDIGGER on 10-07-2010 03:39 AM:

I think using semen is a great tool for breeders and overall can/will help improve breeding coondogs. However, in the walker breed I don't necessarily think it's needed as there is basically anything and everything out there already.

But as far as other breeds, I think that is where using semen could possibly make a huge impact. Some less popular breeds don't get to reproduce the sheer number of pups out of its' best reproducers for various reasons.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 10-07-2010 03:46 AM:

Every thing is a MIX of genes. If you take a brownie mix and mix it with a chocolate cake mix you might get close but the more you mix it the further you get from the brownie. Now the only way you can get back as close as you can get to the brownie is to bix the brownie back in. ONLY way you can get the real brownie is to CLONE.
So you can take a perfect stud and improve a bloodline but you can't make another perfect dog. The mix will NEVER be quite the same. So the longer you can go back to the perfect MIX the closer you can get but if you add vanilia cake into the mix you just screwed it all up again.
They breed a good stud to every flavor so only the breeders that keep it as pure as posible are doing any good.

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